Til or Till

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Til or Till

Post by RegularGuy3 » 16 Sep 2017, 14:12

I have noticed a lot of publications and books using "till" as a substitute for "until." I always thought the abbreviated form was "til" (or, more accurately, "'til" with the apostrophe but nobody bothers with that anymore). Is "till" really an accepted form now?

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Post by rssllue » 16 Sep 2017, 14:33

All I can say is don't put the money in the till til the sale is final. ;)
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Post by CatInTheHat » 21 Sep 2017, 08:01

If the purpose is to be more casual, it would be 'til. And yes, the apostrophe is needed for it to be correct.
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Post by BoyLazy » 30 Sep 2017, 09:15

Till is commonly used
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Post by Christina Rose » 30 Sep 2017, 21:51

I think using till is still grammatically unacceptable, even if it is used more often than before. I guess if it is casually acceptable, then using it in a blog post or on social media would be no big deal, but if you're actually trying to write something grammatically correct, I would use until or 'til (with the apostrophe).

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Post by CommMayo » 16 Nov 2017, 23:35

If I saw "till" being used, I would penalize it for bad grammar. I think the only way "'til" is appropriate is as slang is in written dialogue.

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Post by Miriam Molina » 17 Nov 2017, 00:35

For those who care to read it, following is a quote from the website Grammar Girl:

I regularly receive questions from people who are confused about the words until, till and 'til.

When you're talking about a period of time that must lapse before something happens, till and until are equivalent. Don't believe it? Check a dictionary. Some sources say that until sometimes has a more formal sound than till, but often the two words are just interchangeable. Here are two examples:

We spun in circles until we were dizzy.

We ran till we were breathless.

And till isn’t contraction of until either. They’re two separate words, and till actually came first. It’s the older word, first used in the 12th century. People didn’t start using until until the 13th century.

Nearly all the style guides I checked recommended against using ‘til. For example, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says the form is “etymologically incorrect,” the Chicago Manual of Style says it “should not be written ‘til,” and Garner’s Modern English Usage calls it “incorrect” with “no literary history.” In fact, Garner’s says people didn’t really even start thinking ‘til was OK until the 1980s, so it’s a quite recent error.

Many style guides also go out of their way to emphasize that till is fine, which is often a clue that at some point people said it wasn’t; and given that I’ve had to answer questions about disputes over the word, I think that if you want to completely avoid controversy, it's safest to stick with until. But I’ll do my part and say there’s absolutely nothing wrong with till.

One final interesting thing is the etymology of till. We’ve been talking about the preposition and conjunction, but of course, it’s also a verb that means “to work dirt” (as in to till the land) and a noun that means “a box or drawer that holds money” (as in put the money in the cash register till).

You might think these words all came from the same place since they’re all spelled the same, but they don’t. According to Etymology Online, all three have completely different origins.

So that’s your Quick and Dirty Tip: Until and till are essentially interchangeable. If you want to be super safe, stick with until and definitely avoid ‘til.

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Post by CommMayo » 17 Nov 2017, 09:57

Thanks for all of that information. I had no idea till was its own version of until.

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Post by Dolor » 18 Nov 2017, 11:03

Miriam Molina wrote:For those who care to read it, following is a quote from the website Grammar Girl:

I regularly receive questions from people who are confused about the words until, till and 'til.

When you're talking about a period of time that must lapse before something happens, till and until are equivalent. Don't believe it? Check a dictionary. Some sources say that until sometimes has a more formal sound than till, but often the two words are just interchangeable. Here are two examples:

We spun in circles until we were dizzy.

We ran till we were breathless.

And till isn’t contraction of until either. They’re two separate words, and till actually came first. It’s the older word, first used in the 12th century. People didn’t start using until until the 13th century.

Nearly all the style guides I checked recommended against using ‘til. For example, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says the form is “etymologically incorrect,” the Chicago Manual of Style says it “should not be written ‘til,” and Garner’s Modern English Usage calls it “incorrect” with “no literary history.” In fact, Garner’s says people didn’t really even start thinking ‘til was OK until the 1980s, so it’s a quite recent error.

Many style guides also go out of their way to emphasize that till is fine, which is often a clue that at some point people said it wasn’t; and given that I’ve had to answer questions about disputes over the word, I think that if you want to completely avoid controversy, it's safest to stick with until. But I’ll do my part and say there’s absolutely nothing wrong with till.

One final interesting thing is the etymology of till. We’ve been talking about the preposition and conjunction, but of course, it’s also a verb that means “to work dirt” (as in to till the land) and a noun that means “a box or drawer that holds money” (as in put the money in the cash register till).

You might think these words all came from the same place since they’re all spelled the same, but they don’t. According to Etymology Online, all three have completely different origins.

So that’s your Quick and Dirty Tip: Until and till are essentially interchangeable. If you want to be super safe, stick with until and definitely avoid ‘til.

You did your homework. ?

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Post by Rosemary Wright » 03 Dec 2017, 07:24

" Till " is a substitute and not an abbreviation for the word "Until." It's either you use till or until. " 'till " also is not an abbreviation for until. It's an error which should be avoided in writing. " 'til " is not acceptable in formal writing but can be used in expressing spoken speeches in writing.

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Post by SPasciuti » 12 Jan 2018, 16:44

Well, that information was eye opening...but also, at the end of the day, the only reason till as a short form of until became popular to use in today's time is because till doesn't trip the spell check sensor like 'til does so a bunch of people who didn't know better started using it that way. It irks me to NO end when people use till as a substitute for until.

Even with the new information regarding the use of till before until in the past, I don't think I'd ever be able to bring myself to use it. It may be harsh, but I genuinely have a huge problem and am sort of judgey whenever I notice someone using till. It's a massive pet peeve of mine.

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Post by lbhatters » 04 Apr 2018, 07:53

Miriam Molina wrote:
17 Nov 2017, 00:35
For those who care to read it, following is a quote from the website Grammar Girl:

.....

Nearly all the style guides I checked recommended against using ‘til. For example, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says the form is “etymologically incorrect,” the Chicago Manual of Style says it “should not be written ‘til,” and Garner’s Modern English Usage calls it “incorrect” with “no literary history.” In fact, Garner’s says people didn’t really even start thinking ‘til was OK until the 1980s, so it’s a quite recent error.

Many style guides also go out of their way to emphasize that till is fine, which is often a clue that at some point people said it wasn’t; and given that I’ve had to answer questions about disputes over the word, I think that if you want to completely avoid controversy, it's safest to stick with until. But I’ll do my part and say there’s absolutely nothing wrong with till.

One final interesting thing is the etymology of till. We’ve been talking about the preposition and conjunction, but of course, it’s also a verb that means “to work dirt” (as in to till the land) and a noun that means “a box or drawer that holds money” (as in put the money in the cash register till).

You might think these words all came from the same place since they’re all spelled the same, but they don’t. According to Etymology Online, all three have completely different origins.

So that’s your Quick and Dirty Tip: Until and till are essentially interchangeable. If you want to be super safe, stick with until and definitely avoid ‘til.
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