The "Oxford comma" explained
Moderator: Official Reviewer Representatives
- moderntimes
- Posts: 2249
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 13:03
- Favorite Book: Ulysses by James Joyce
- Currently Reading: Grendel by John Gardner
- Bookshelf Size: 0
The "Oxford comma" explained
She bought red, green, and blue balloons. vs
She bought red, green and blue balloons.
Now for a long time, US usage added the comma before the "and" (1st example sentence) and British usage omitted it. Nowadays, common usage overall is to omit the comma, something that took me quite a while to become accustomed to, as I normally used the comma before "and".
And I also thought, incorrectly, that the "Oxford comma" meant to add it. I was wrong, and you writers need to become acquainted with the new rules for using a comma in a list.
Generally it's this: Omit the comma before the "and" unless the list can be confusing if the comma is deleted. That is actually the "Oxford comma" -- so, normally you'd omit the comma per the 2nd sentence above. But, if you've got a more complex list, such as:
I ate fish and chips, bread and jam, and ice cream.
This is taken from the actual Oxford University guide on grammar and punctuation, and as you can see, the comma prior to the "and" is needed to make sense out of the pairs of items in the list. And this is the "real" Oxford comma usage, and it's pretty much become the standard, both in the US and British stylebooks. So learn it, gang.
- rssllue
- Previous Member of the Month
- Posts: 50731
- Joined: 02 Oct 2014, 01:52
- Favorite Book: The Bible
- Currently Reading: A Year with C. S. Lewis
- Bookshelf Size: 602
- Reviewer Page: onlinebookclub.org/reviews/by-rssllue.html
- Latest Review: My Personal Desert Storm by Marcus Johnson
Sadly, I still struggle omitting the comma at times since it is so ingrained in my writing. But I am working on it!
I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for Thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety. ~ Psalms 4:8
- moderntimes
- Posts: 2249
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 13:03
- Favorite Book: Ulysses by James Joyce
- Currently Reading: Grendel by John Gardner
- Bookshelf Size: 0
So now I've got to do this, as you do, remember to omit the comma even when, dammit! it makes sense to leave in! Arrgh!
- gali
- Previous Member of the Month
- Posts: 53653
- Joined: 22 Oct 2013, 07:12
- Currently Reading: Pride and Prejudice in Space
- Bookshelf Size: 2288
- Reviewer Page: onlinebookclub.org/reviews/by-gali.html
- Reading Device: B00I15SB16
- Publishing Contest Votes: 0
Pronouns: She/Her
"In the case of good books, the point is not to see how many of them you can get through, but rather how many can get through to you." (Mortimer J. Adler)
-
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 03 Aug 2015, 09:28
- Currently Reading: Artistic Licence
- Bookshelf Size: 6
- Reviewer Page: onlinebookclub.org/reviews/by-hilarymay.html
- moderntimes
- Posts: 2249
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 13:03
- Favorite Book: Ulysses by James Joyce
- Currently Reading: Grendel by John Gardner
- Bookshelf Size: 0
In my writing I often omit commas where they're "supposed" to be anyway. I'm writing a series of modern American private eye novels and my style is very modern and breezy, with deliberate run-on sentences to evoke an increased rhythm in the phrasing. Such techniques are common in modern fiction and I use them accordingly. As my editor once told me, "If you break the rules, do so with style."
Amusingly, I'd finished my 3rd novel is the series and was submitting it to various publishers. I accidentally sent it to a "vanity" (subsidy) house because their name was similar to a legit publisher. And my first chapter came back totally marked up by their "editor" who then said that my writing was full of errors and bad writing, and they recommended an editing service. Naturally this is a scam, the "service" probably the same people. Trick is to send newbie writers back and forth and keep them paying for editing tweaks while dangling a publishing contract under their noses. Even if the contract occurs, the author pays for publishing, which is wrong.
Anyway, my chapter was trounced upon by the vanity house, which in their markup, refused to allow my deliberately incomplete sentences and such. And as you know, incomplete sentences are perfectly okay in modern fiction. For nonfiction or maybe a more literary novel, less so. But for genre fiction, especially a fast-paced mystery? They're fine.
But I am also e-pals with a couple of fairly well known mystery authors, and they've read my first chapters (and liked them) so I emailed them and asked about the sentence structure. Both of them of course said "okay" and that my writing was perfectly in line with modern techniques.
And just a couple weeks, ago, all THREE of my novels were picked up by a legit, non-subsidy publisher, and they'll be publishing all 3 books in both print and e-book format this fall. So I guess that my "poor" writing ability is all right, hey?
-
- Posts: 5980
- Joined: 27 Mar 2013, 20:01
- Favorite Book: <a href="http://forums.onlinebookclub.org/shelve ... =3452">The Thorn Birds</a>
- Currently Reading: The Last Stonestepper
- Bookshelf Size: 79
- Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of Forever Twelve
He ran, slid, and landed in the pond.
I'm eating red, green, and yellow apples.
Some people are tall, some people are short, and some people are in between.
Are you saying those examples are wrong?
- moderntimes
- Posts: 2249
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 13:03
- Favorite Book: Ulysses by James Joyce
- Currently Reading: Grendel by John Gardner
- Bookshelf Size: 0
But now, the rules have changed and nobody uses that comma any more. Publishers in both the USA and Britain (and English language editions of books from elsewhere), all omit that comma now.
I'm slowly getting used to it and I guess we all need to eventually, because the publisher will yank it out anyway, sigh.
- PashaRu
- Posts: 9174
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 17:02
- Currently Reading: Vicars of Christ - The Dark Side of the Papacy
- Bookshelf Size: 191
- Reviewer Page: onlinebookclub.org/reviews/by-pasharu.html
- Latest Review: "Damn Females on the Lawn" by Rachel Hurd
A writer who strictly adheres to all of the "proper" rules can be, in my opinion, a good writer. But not a great writer. Because a great writer expands his mind, talents, and writing beyond the artificial and arbitrary boxes and boundaries created by someone else.
Shakespeare, for example, created words and phrases that are still in use today; it's estimated that he contributed several thousand new words to the English language. He turned nouns into verbs, verbs into adjectives, connected words never before used together, added prefixes and suffixes, and devised completely new words. A stickler-for-the-rules middle school English teacher would have eviscerated his plays and sonnets with the dreaded red pen. Charles Dickens, arguably one of the greatest novelists in the English language, wrote long run-on sentences. Again, too-locked-into-the-rules-for-her-own-good British schoolmarm would have handed him back his paper with multiple errors marked. A remarkable writer in recent times is Annie Proulx (The Shipping News, which won the Pulitzer in 1994). Choppy, incomplete sentences. To sticklers, deserving the dreaded red pen. But writing so good it takes your breath away.
Language is here to serve people, not the other way around. If you (any author) stringently follow the rules, I'll respect you. But that's not terribly difficult to do. If you break them (and do it creatively, "with style," as the above poster noted), I'll admire you. Maybe even envy you. Because you are creative and original. And nothing is off limits - not spelling, punctuation, syntax, capitalization, etc. Of course, this does not justify being sloppy or careless. That's an entirely different matter. And never obscure the meaning. But to use language in new, unique ways (either written or spoken) is beyond good writing. It is great, inspired, and inspiring writing.
Finally, I understand that compromises may need to be made to get published. And that's kind of sad.
-
- Posts: 5980
- Joined: 27 Mar 2013, 20:01
- Favorite Book: <a href="http://forums.onlinebookclub.org/shelve ... =3452">The Thorn Birds</a>
- Currently Reading: The Last Stonestepper
- Bookshelf Size: 79
- Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of Forever Twelve
To PashaRu: Minutiae is necessary for those of us who self-publish. Just off the top of my head, here's some stuff I've learned since I took up writing: don't capitalize "social studies," or any class that isn't a language. Don't overuse go, say, or walk. Don't overuse exclamation points. Don't overuse italics for emphasis, as most readers know which word in a sentence is being emphasized. Be consistent with vaguely-understood stuff such as ellipses every time you use them. Don't tab; use indents. If you hit enter, you may need to delete a space. Insert a page break for each chapter for Kindle formatting.
I don't want to have to go back in time and relearn all that! I do understand your loathing of minutiae, though; I used to hate staff meetings with a passion, for that exact reason. Also, if a publisher actually wanted me to compromise my sense of proper grammar, he'd hit a square wall of Meg-resistance. (I'm a Taurus. We're incredibly stubborn.)
- moderntimes
- Posts: 2249
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 13:03
- Favorite Book: Ulysses by James Joyce
- Currently Reading: Grendel by John Gardner
- Bookshelf Size: 0
Insofar as compromises to be published, I'd appreciate hearing your personal experience regarding that, because my own experience is that I simply had to adhere to the publisher's style guide. When I wrote for a major newspaper, there was a hard and fast style guide that we all had to follow. It dealt with things like punctuation but also other things, such as the correct spelling of a street name, "Hudson Boulevard" and not "Hudson Street" and so on. And when I wrote engineering specs for the offshore oil industry, there were very rigid rules for not only punctuation but certain terms had to be precisely written. This was because our specs would later be auto-translated for workers in Malaysia or Japan or Honduras or Germany or wherever. And when my articles or short stories were published, only legal things in the articles were vetted and similar changes required. Otherwise I was not made to change anything.
And when my two novels were published, I can attest that besides obvious errors, such as a missing closing quote or a missing period, misspelling a character's name, and so on, the publisher's editors gave me free reign on my writing. And I'm a nobody. So please let us know your own personal experiences with being published.
As for punctuation and the Oxford comma, it's no big deal. I learn to omit the comma and go ahead and write my 4th novel. Such changes are trivial.
But I do also tell you that I DO break the strict rules of formal punctuation all the time. Were I writing a formal essay for a literary magazine or an article for a national magazine (both of which I've done, for pay), that would be different.
But I'm writing a series of modern American private detective thrillers and so the pace and rhythm of my stories is brisk and I often deliberately omit commas to invoke a feeling of rushing toward a conclusion and to push the narrative. (as I just did in that sentence) Some of my characters make grammatical errors in their dialogue but not a lot. It's essential to not slather on the bad English too much or it will quickly become a 1930s bad mystery movie. I have many incomplete sentences and do that deliberately. And my editors have NEVER asked that these sort of things be changed. That's stylistic for many modern action-oriented novels and although it might be flagged in an essay for a formal literary magazine, it's common practice in a mystery thriller. As my editor once told me, "If you break the rules, do so with style."
What is annoying for me is to sift through all 3 novels once again before formal submission, nearly a quarter million words, to tweak the text so that it's as good as I can make it. Deleting the comma in a list is easy with a find/replace in MS-Word. But I really did find some chaff among the wheat, too. I overused the word "then" in my narrative and it bogged down the pace. For example:
He picked up the knife and then put it into an evidence bag. vs
He picked up the knife, put it into an evidence bag.
Which is also technically wrong, as it asks for a semicolon instead of a comma and yes I know this, but I really, really hate semicolons and vow to never use one in my novels, ha ha.
And Zelda, I'm just as stubborn for a different reason, being a Virgo, and not only is everyone else wrong but I have to explain why to them in long expository lectures. heh heh
Self published or not, we authors must use correct English most of the time and not overuse things like exclamation points and italics, you're totally correct!!!!
-
- Posts: 5980
- Joined: 27 Mar 2013, 20:01
- Favorite Book: <a href="http://forums.onlinebookclub.org/shelve ... =3452">The Thorn Birds</a>
- Currently Reading: The Last Stonestepper
- Bookshelf Size: 79
- Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of Forever Twelve
- GandalfTheFey
- Posts: 176
- Joined: 16 Jul 2015, 19:23
- Bookshelf Size: 0
I wrestled with the oxford comma for years, until I started listening to Vampire Weekend and heard this song... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcloWhudu8A
- moderntimes
- Posts: 2249
- Joined: 15 Mar 2014, 13:03
- Favorite Book: Ulysses by James Joyce
- Currently Reading: Grendel by John Gardner
- Bookshelf Size: 0
Anyway, the explanation in my first post is the right one, per the actual guide. Who wouda thunk it?
-- 06 Aug 2015, 13:36 --
And also, anyone who wants the "official" Oxford University Style Guide, PM me with your email and I'll send you the PDF.
This guide is succinct and well written, and up to date with all the latest style info for typography, such as comma placement, dashes, ellipses, etc. and it's an easy to understand guide, not thick or muddy at all.
It's the "bible" for British-preferred style. US writers such as I will need to modify the guide's specs in accordance with things like quotes. As you know Brit style for quotes and quotes within is this:
I told her, 'Sharon said, "I don't care!" and I agree.' versus US style of:
I told her, "Sharon said, 'I don't care!' and I agree."
But otherwise, the guide is excellent for any English writer. Of course, depending on your preference or the recommendation of your publisher / editor, if you're writing American style, you'll likely use the Chicago Manual of Style (published by the Univ of Chicago) or similar.
-
- Posts: 5980
- Joined: 27 Mar 2013, 20:01
- Favorite Book: <a href="http://forums.onlinebookclub.org/shelve ... =3452">The Thorn Birds</a>
- Currently Reading: The Last Stonestepper
- Bookshelf Size: 79
- Signature Addition: View official OnlineBookClub.org review of Forever Twelve