Has the God deceived us?

Use this forum to discuss the March 2021 Book of the month, "The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God’s Plan" by Daniel Friedmann, Dania Sheldon
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Caroline Anne Richmond
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Re: Has the God deceived us?

Post by Caroline Anne Richmond »

I don’t think there is deception from God. His creation of the universe was done in his own time and way. Science strives to understand this and reveal timelines. I think there are many things we will never understand and maybe that’s the way it should be.
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Post by Zwelakhe_mkhatshwa »

Yes, I think it is true, looking around science tells us that it's being around for billions of years but according to God, one Earthly day is equal to Thousand years, so He didn't deceive us but created a riddle He knew a handful of us can deduce.
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Post by jaym_tan »

I will probably be met with disagreements, and that's fine, but no god deceived us, the universe was created just as it is. Whatever findings were made (like fossils and rocks dating back millions of years, or whatnot) you cannot dispute the amount of work put in these discoveries just to prove how long this world existed. However, it doesn't mean that I hold scientists to some standard where they can do no wrong, because in science there are new findings that challenge the previous claims, unlike looking for answers in religious texts that provide no concrete evidence.
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Post by MarcellaM »

I think the author's speculation that God has deceived us by making the world look older than it is, is not right. Scientists have done experiments from what they found in existence and their assumptions. Their assumptions are therefore the basis of their experiments. God would benefit nothing by lying to us since we are his creation and whatever we have to do including the scientists is by God's grace.
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Post by 63tty »

Sushan wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 12:04
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 10:16 I don't think this is true. I think that God caused the Big Bang and the events that followed were a part of His plan. You can make jeans look faded and old yes, but you cannot make rocks look old when really it is young. Just because you make something look old it doesn't mean it is old, you can usually tell by the wear in something what its age is. Fossils have been studied and the stone and literally be dated back millions of years, it's not just a guess, it's down to the composition. The universe is 14 billion years old and the earth 4.5 billion years old. Material found on Earth and in space proves that, for example, volcanic material. I don't think that God has deceived us, I don't think He has any reason to.
If the God was powerful enough to create the whole universe, how can He be not capable of making a rock look old, or fool the scientists by making the fossils age thousands of years? For the author's arguments and speculations to be true, either of these things should have happened; either God should have deceived us or the science has got all wrong. But if everything is God's doing, it brings us back to the conclusion that the God has deceived us. But why?
There is this phrase that goes "man is to error" and God is actually perfect and makes no errors. So there is a higher possibility that the author is the one who is wrong and God has to be right, He can't deceive us, what's the point.
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Post by 63tty »

Bertha Jackson wrote: 03 Mar 2021, 17:24 I do not believe God deceives his people. God has provided us with life, and how we perceive it, is totally us to us. I think it would be fairer to ask if we are deceiving God.
I agree, He has not deceived us, that was the whole point of free will, so that we choose our paths. God "wants" everyone to make their own choices based on all the knowledge they were given so that in the end, we only answer to our choices and actions because we know better.
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Post by 63tty »

Sushan wrote: 04 Mar 2021, 07:11
Hhannahh wrote: 04 Mar 2021, 02:08 The author has got quite some opinion, which I don't entirely agree with. But the truth of these arguments is that we'll never certainly know the absolute truth, we can only speculate.
And God has not deceived.
Seemingly author's this idea is not equally welcome by all the Christian population. Anyway, he has gone into this logical (or not) explanation to fit the scientific time line of the universe into the biblical time line. So he has tried to prove that the Creation is true.

And what I see mostly when someone say that 'we cannot know all', it is because they want to believe in their beliefs, yet are challenged by the scientific evidence that oppose them
I think you dont realize that most of the "Christians" (as you say) disputing this are actually siding with science too. The author seems to be a Christian trying to interpret the Bible(with many opinionsof his own) yet most are "Christians" disputing his findings.

Also, saying "we might never know" is simply being open-minded despite ones beliefs.
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Post by 63tty »

Michaeljerry309 wrote: 04 Mar 2021, 02:53
Sushan wrote: 04 Mar 2021, 01:00
Michaeljerry309 wrote: 03 Mar 2021, 16:55 Firstly I don’t think that God somehow deceived anyone secondly why would God make the earth then make it look older than it is? If you think he did it for no reason then he could have created us too for no reason. So yes the earth is as old as science says it is. Let us try to remember that this book isn’t the absolute truth as the absolute truth is unknown, this book is just yet another speculation of what the absolute truth is meaning that the author could be right or wrong.
I agree. This is only a speculation and the author can be either correct or wrong. But what we have to keep in mind is that he has not merely speculated things, he has backed his logic with scholarly articles.

On the other hand, 'no one knows the absolute truth' is a pretty commonly abused statement when it comes to this sort of religious or spiritual questions, since no one can accept them or reject them. So, with all due respect, the creation could have been an outright lie from the very beginning. Maybe it is not God who deceived us, but the ancient story tellers who made up the story
Exactly!!
Most of the things we know about God are things we have been told so the information isn’t first hand and could have had things added or withheld and the Bible speaks in parables and metaphors who’s to really say what’s literal and what’s not. Moreover the same can; to a degree, be said about science these experiments done are carried out in closed doors and the results could be exaggerated or watered down and so we aren’t even sure that science or the ancient story tellers are 100% accurate. I studied philosophy in the university and one thing I learned is that every philosophy without scientific proof is still speculation, just a hypothesis, just another “in theory” because there are always other philosophers with their own point of views. Just think about it, I could write my own book disagreeing with most things the author has said in his book, that’s my opinion, my philosophy and others would read it and agree with me while some would still agree with the author. Who then is correct? Who’s philosophy is more accurate then? That is the beauty of philosophy.
Okay, let's assume it is all just philosophy even the Bible. Then what is the point of life, what is the point of our actions if there is no judgement, why do we die, why don't we live forever. It's definitely not naural selection. If there is no moral standing there is just chaos.Then I just use your point against you, it is also just your speculation about the Bible being a speculation. All these "philosophies" are definitely encouraged and that is why there is free will. If you had proof of God then we would feel suffocated and not be able to do whatever we want. At least we are allowed to make mistakes now.
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Post by Michael Jerry_ »

63tty wrote: 16 Mar 2021, 10:05
Michaeljerry309 wrote: 04 Mar 2021, 02:53
Sushan wrote: 04 Mar 2021, 01:00

I agree. This is only a speculation and the author can be either correct or wrong. But what we have to keep in mind is that he has not merely speculated things, he has backed his logic with scholarly articles.

On the other hand, 'no one knows the absolute truth' is a pretty commonly abused statement when it comes to this sort of religious or spiritual questions, since no one can accept them or reject them. So, with all due respect, the creation could have been an outright lie from the very beginning. Maybe it is not God who deceived us, but the ancient story tellers who made up the story
Exactly!!
Most of the things we know about God are things we have been told so the information isn’t first hand and could have had things added or withheld and the Bible speaks in parables and metaphors who’s to really say what’s literal and what’s not. Moreover the same can; to a degree, be said about science these experiments done are carried out in closed doors and the results could be exaggerated or watered down and so we aren’t even sure that science or the ancient story tellers are 100% accurate. I studied philosophy in the university and one thing I learned is that every philosophy without scientific proof is still speculation, just a hypothesis, just another “in theory” because there are always other philosophers with their own point of views. Just think about it, I could write my own book disagreeing with most things the author has said in his book, that’s my opinion, my philosophy and others would read it and agree with me while some would still agree with the author. Who then is correct? Who’s philosophy is more accurate then? That is the beauty of philosophy.
Okay, let's assume it is all just philosophy even the Bible. Then what is the point of life, what is the point of our actions if there is no judgement, why do we die, why don't we live forever. It's definitely not naural selection. If there is no moral standing there is just chaos.Then I just use your point against you, it is also just your speculation about the Bible being a speculation. All these "philosophies" are definitely encouraged and that is why there is free will. If you had proof of God then we would feel suffocated and not be able to do whatever we want. At least we are allowed to make mistakes now.
The point of life is to be. Just live, be happy make love whatever try to enjoy life because you are only human and you’d still die one day as all other living things die. Death is natural and part of the cycle because from death comes life (animals die And become fit for plants which in turn die to become food for animals that die to be food for other animals and so on) and we do have moral standings but they are not as simple as a and b or so straightforward that everyone can judge and judge correctly and that’s why justices isn’t always served and yes me saying that the Bible could just be speculation is in of itself speculation that’s why no one knows as long as there is no hard core evidence to prove anything.
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Post by TheMazeRunner »

Well, that is a theme to discuss. I personally think that God created the Universe, and the Earth came along with it. But it is as important as the creation in Bible.
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Post by zainherb »

Sushan wrote: 04 Mar 2021, 01:03
Bertha Jackson wrote: 03 Mar 2021, 17:24 I do not believe God deceives his people. God has provided us with life, and how we perceive it, is totally us to us. I think it would be fairer to ask if we are deceiving God.
Are we deceiving God is a good question which has to be seperately discussed.

But here, if we consider the topic in hand, the author of this book has tried to scientifically prove the Creation, and fit it into the scientific time line. I do not believe that he meant any disrespect for the religion or God, but he had had his own reasons as well as backing from the work of previous scholars to suggest that actually God might have deceived us. Due to the way that he has presented this argument, we cannot merely neglect it
Seeing as the scientific theories are just that - theories, not facts, we do not take them as absolute truth. So, even if the author uses these scientific theories to prove the creation, it does not mean that things actually happened the way he thinks they happened.

Also, even if it is all true, the explanations of the author about the timeline and all, God does not have to have deceived us. I think this is a negative way to view things and is unnecessary. Perhaps God had his reasons for making things look different from their actual age as the author explained.it does not have to have been in deceit.
Just like God has a purpose for making some people look black, brown, white or in between. We are all humans with similar functions despite differing colours. Does this mean God deceived about ourselves?
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Post by Mvictoria »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 02 Mar 2021, 10:16 I don't think this is true. I think that God caused the Big Bang and the events that followed were a part of His plan. You can make jeans look faded and old yes, but you cannot make rocks look old when really it is young. Just because you make something look old it doesn't mean it is old, you can usually tell by the wear in something what its age is. Fossils have been studied and the stone and literally be dated back millions of years, it's not just a guess, it's down to the composition. The universe is 14 billion years old and the earth 4.5 billion years old. Material found on Earth and in space proves that, for example, volcanic material. I don't think that God has deceived us, I don't think He has any reason to.
I think it's true that I personally can't make a rock look old when it's young, but an all-powerful creator definitely could. The Bible tells us that God made fully formed trees and oceans and creatures during the creation period. I think it's perfectly reasonable that he could have made these things look old when they weren't. Further, however, I don't believe that is what happened. I don't think God deceived us, I think a creation day is longer than a physical day on Earth and that's why the Earth is so old and the Bible doesn't directly match with that. I think we also have to remember that the Bible has been reviewed and changed and translated a hundred times over, so there could be just a difference in the word "day" used to describe a creation day.
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Post by Mvictoria »

I personally believe that a Creation day was longer than a day on Earth, so God did not deceive us, but actually the Earth is as old as scientists say it is. I don't believe that God would intentionally put things to make us doubt his existence on Earth. I think the timeline of Creation must be longer than seven days.
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Post by cogitononsum »

This reminds me a lot of good omens, the idea that everything is just a snapshot and was actually created 6000 years ago, that all the old things we have is just not.
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Post by Miller56 »

I do not believe that God deceives His people. I believe that we do not have enough understanding and faith in God and His ways so we try to explain everything with what we know. I think that God created the universe and all things in it. I think that throughout time, things evolve to survive. If we think about our own bodies, we have an appendix that serves no function. However, at one time, it probably did serve a purpose, but it is not needed anymore. Therefore, I think God does not deceive us, but those of us who have scientific backgrounds want proof of all things. That is just how our minds work.
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