Emma (spoilers)

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arlina
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Re: Emma (spoilers)

Post by arlina »

I saw Gwyneth Paltrow movie adaptation of Emma before reading the book and then decided to read the book. It took me a while to read it because I didn't fancy Emma's character so much in the book. In the movie she is silly, lovely, a bit superficial, but in the book everything is happening around her. She is presented somehow egocentric and mean. I will watch the Kate Beckinsale movie version also. Makes me curious..
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Post by Rachaelamb1 »

Norma_Rudolph wrote:I'm a Jane Austin fan. To me it is Emma's flaws that make her real. She's annoying but we love her because she does eventually learn from her mistakes and she is humble enough in the end to admit that she is wrong. It is also funny to see how deep she gets herself into scrapes. I especially like when the Mr Elton proposes and she is so horrified to think that he would. She is naively smug and it bites her in the end. Yes, Emma is a piece of work. That's sort of the point.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. I found Emma to be a charming book.
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Post by JMWHIT »

One of my favorites from High school... A fantastic book with many different areas where debating becomes not only fun, but essential in dissecting the details.
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Post by EleIIIV »

I may have not read the book but this one movie explains it all to me Emma clearly tends to put herself in a lot of trouble of course she does not mean to get into trouble she just sometimes place the wrong two people together
Despite this I don't Emma is terrible person instead I think she is a sweetheart trying to lookout others and their best interest and she does that by matching them with the right soul mate
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Post by Bronte Erickson »

I don't think Jane Austen necessarily intended for the reader to sympathize with Emma, early on Austen wrote " the real evils, indeed, of Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little too well of herself ." True to her style there are two stories here, the "romance storyline" and the social commentary on not being open
, honest, and rational . Which she illustrates by showing the reader how flawed it makes our characters .
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Post by EllesseP »

Perhaps it's a little strange and very controversial, but though I'm madly in love with Pride and Prejudice, I think Emma may be it for me. I find it incredibly easy to emphasise with the titular character and even enjoy her at her worst moments. Emma is a very human character, in all her flaws, and it is relaxing, inspiring even, to see her improve herself and earn her own happy ending.
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Post by ALynnPowers »

If anyone reads this, you are welcome to join in with the 6 week discussion of Emma by Jane Austen that will follow from this point onward. Each Sunday for the next 6 weeks, some of us will be discussing a pre-scheduled section of the book. The schedule is (tentatively) as follows:

"Due" Date : Read through
Week 1 (Nov 1): Volume 1 Chapter 9
Week 2 (Nov 8th): Volume 1 Chapter 18
Week 3 (Nov 15): Volume 2 Chapter 9
Week 4 (Nov 22): Volume 2 Chapter 18
Week 5 (Nov 29): Volume 3 Chapter 9
Week 6 (Dec 6): Volume 3 Chapter 19 (end)

Then we will post our thoughts on the section! Yay! Let's do it!
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Post by PashaRu »

Okay, I'll try to keep up with the schedule!

(Is Emma science fiction? Are there aliens and monsters and such?)
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Post by ALynnPowers »

PashaRu wrote:Okay, I'll try to keep up with the schedule!

(Is Emma science fiction? Are there aliens and monsters and such?)
I think it has vampires and zombies. And vampires who eat zombies. And vice versa.

But no, seriously, GUesS where I am aT the mOment! And it's already Sunday for me, so I will talk about what I read this week, from Week 1, chapter 1-9

So... first of all, am I crazy for thinking that this book is going to be all girly and kind of silly? Is it strange that I kind of read it as if it is written sarcastically? Like it's actually a satire? For some reason, I just get that kind of voice in my head whenever I read Jane Austen!

Already, I feel like Emma is a character that Jane Austen doesn't even want us to like. Like she is the type of character that we are supposed to laugh at because she is just so full of herself and ridiculous (yet I imagine that this type of woman was pretty common back in those days, which is the whole point??). In the very, very beginning, I did get a pinch of sympathy for her, because I kind of know from experience how it feels to have your only friend in the world marry and go off, suddenly leaving you alone in the world and feeling like you have no one else who is at your level anymore. It's quite a lonely place to be, but instead of just admitting that she is lonely and misses her friend, Emma goes all hoity-toity and my sympathy died as a result.

But this is going to be a story in which Emma ends up in love with the man she originally doesn't like, isn't it? Mr. Knightly perhaps? Mr. Elton? Despite her efforts to set him up with Harriet and her total cluelessness that he might be interested in her and NOT in Harriet -- I'm not just imagining this, am I?

Okay, yeah, I can totally see the silly, girliness coming out of it! Time to start squeeing in delight over some "charades" and awkward conversations. :lol:
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Post by PashaRu »

Emma Chapters 1-9

I read Pride & Prejudice by Jane Austen last year. When I started reading Emma, I was expecting more of the same - 19th century chick lit. It seems my expectations were more or less on target, but (so far) without the interesting characters of P&P. Just endless banter about romance and marriage. And so far, I don't really care what happens to any of the characters.

In the first few chapters, Emma is imperfectly presented and described. What I mean is, it's difficult to get a handle on her character. While she is described by other characters, the narrative and action (what little "action" there is) do not support the opinions of the characters regarding her. (They don't contradict them either; there just seems to be a bit of a disconnect between what the narrator shows us and what the other characters see in her.) By the conclusion of chapter 9 I had a pretty good picture of her, but up until chapters 6 or 7, this hadn't crystallized yet. Strange, as she's the main and titular character.

Now, for the "show me, don't tell me" crowd*, this book (so far) does an awful lot of the latter, and almost none of the former. So far, this is a very "talky" book. Just pages and pages of rather unrealistic, speak-in-long-paragraphs-of-dialogue, the way real and natural conversations never happen in real life. I realize it was the writing style of the time, but when it goes on page after page, chapter after chapter, it starts to become a bit tedious. Even the proposal of Mr. Martin is done by letter (no dramatic, romantic, or uncomfortable/awkward conversation between him and Harriet) and we, the readers, are only told about it after Harriet has read the letter and is telling Emma about it. We don't even get to see/know Harriet's reaction, as she's too busy asking Emma what to do. In my opinion, this severely reduces the dramatic impact Mr. Martin's proposal could have had in the story. We are simply "told," not "shown."

So far, not much has happened. It's moving rather slowly. It took an entire chapter (5) for Knightley and Emma to disagree about Emma's friendship with Harriet. Just blah blah blah blah, when it seems the same thing could have been accomplished in a couple of pages. And it's all dialogue. No description of the room they're in, where they are sitting, facial expressions, body language - nothing. I must say, though, that the contents of Ch.9 (about the charade) are interesting in their own rite, and the chapter is well written. Again, it takes too long to move the plot along a couple of inches (which is all that happens in this chapter), but I enjoyed reading it.

The writing is good, and in some places, very good. Austen's wit and sarcasm are on display, although she doesn't have a voice like Elizabeth in P&P as a natural conduit. The fifth paragraph of Ch. 3 (starting "Mrs. Goddard was the mistress...") made me chuckle; it's very well written, and great satire/social commentary. And the last two paragraphs of Ch. 2 made me laugh out loud. Mr. Woodhouse's concern about the wedding cake is there just for humor, and it works.

As for the plot: I can't see Emma ending up with Knightley. He is, after all, the brother of her brother-in-law, and no conflict has been created between Emma, Isabella, or John Knightley. So there is no dramatic tension created by an Emma-Knightley romance. Elton seems hardly her equal; although the characters think him well-connected, popular, and an overall "good catch," the narrative presents him as weak-kneed at every passing thought of Harriet. Hardly the strength of character of, say, Mr. Darcy. It would be really interesting if something happened between Emma and Mr. Martin the farmer. And Frank Churchill has got to figure in somewhere.

We'll see. On to chapter 10!




*This phrase is too-often repeated and sometimes annoys me. I think some people use it without really knowing what they are trying to say. "Telling" in the hands of a capable writer can be so much better and more effective than "showing" in the hands of a mediocre one. "Showing" is not the be-all and end-all of a good book. I'm not sure why this particular critical "buzzphrase" has popped up recently, but it seems, most of the time, to ignore other important aspects of effective narration/storytelling.
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Post by ALynnPowers »

Okay, so I was kind of thinking the same thing about it being a "talky" book, but... um... I kind of thought that was typical of books from this era? And I thought that's what people are supposed to like about them?? I don't know. I kind of don't get it, but it's something that happens in pretty much every classic book in existence that is highly esteemed, and God forbid you ever say anything to indicate that it is less than superior! LOL. Sarcasm is fun.

But I have to say that I kind of disagree with the whole "show me don't tell me" thing you mentioned. I think that the "action" of talking is a way of "showing" the character's personalities... from whatever you can infer from their words alone, since I do agree that there is little else going on to help us out in this field. Like, what are they doing while they are talking? What kind of intonation are they using? It's a little vague in that, so even when we are being "shown" something, we still have to kind of use our own imaginations to figure out what we are being shown in the first place.

I think that Emma's dad is pretty interesting! He kind of reminds me of Droopy... do you know Droopy? He was like a Loony Tunes character, a mopey dog. Or maybe Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh! Like, such a pessimist, but in a funny way and not so much in a sad or depressing way (like I am, ha!).
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Post by PashaRu »

Yes, I think dialogue-dense writing was more in vogue, but other books I've read from the period aren't nearly so static. Of course, dialogue can reveal important things about the characters. But the chapters are just long paragraphs of dialogue, with little by way of description, narration, or additional details. And the plot is moving very slowly. Eh, it's just the first 9 chapters, so I'm keeping an open mind.

Yes, I like Emma's dad! I suspect he's just there for humor. Whether he ends up playing an important role in the plot remains to be seen. I have yet to see a solid plot emerge, to be honest. And I look forward to seeing the characters developed more. I still have a rather vague impression of the principals, including Emma herself. For me, they're still silhouettes emerging from the shadows. But that doesn't mean they are zombies or vampires or anything. Lord knows the book world is over saturated with those tropes these days. :/
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Post by ALynnPowers »

Week 2 (through the end of volume 1)

Okay, I wasn't nearly as organized with my thoughts this week as (I think) I was last week, but here I go anyway.

Uuuuuuuugh, that must have been the world's most boring Christmas dinner ever.
At least Emma's dad was there to make it slightly interesting with his constant worrying about the weather and whatnot.
And okay, fine. I guess the whole contrast between her brother-in-law and Mr. Elton in terms of their attitudes was kind of interesting as well, but... well...

Emma came across as a bit dense in this section, didn't she? On one hand, I was kind of ready to shake her and attempt to slap some sense into her, but on the other hand, I still don't really like her very much, so it kind of made me happy to see her not getting her way with the whole match-making thing. Oh yeah: I TOTALLY CALLED IT, by the way, with Mr. Elton! Well, not that there was anything to call, since it was pretty obvious for the past couple of chapters that his interest was in Emma (since he was constantly fawning over the portrait she was making and then leaving the riddle thingy for her) and not in Harriet. But that it took her the whole dinner party to figure out, and even then, she wouldn't have gotten the idea in her head if her bro-in-law hadn't planted it there in the first place. Hmm.. okay, now that I have written this out, I can feel a little sympathy with Emma, I guess. I mean, she's still pretty young and immature and not nearly as perfect and sophisticated as she thinks she is, which might make me like her just a little bit more.

But I swear if I read one more thing about someone being suited for someone else based on the amount of money they have/will inherit, I might just scream. I really hope that is the point. Please tell me Jane Austen WANTS us to see how totally absurd it is to marry for money and that social rankings are just ridiculous.

All right. That's pretty much all I got out of the reading this time around. The rest was just a bunch of long-winded dialogue. And then that one entire chapter talking about how Emma couldn't understand how she was so wrong about Mr. Elton. Okay, we got the point, thanks for that completely useless chapter to add some pages to the book. Can you imagine if someone tried to submit this for publication today? It would probably be chopped up and edited so much, it wouldn't be recognizable anymore, if it were even accepted at all.
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Post by PashaRu »

Emma Chapters 10-18

After trudging through the next nine chapters, I don't feel like I have much to say. This is probably because the plot is moving at a snail's pace. More stuff happened with the possible Harriet-Mr. Elton romance, but (yes ALynn, you called it!), all for naught.

Here is what happened in 9 chapters: Emma tries her level best to maneuver Elton and Harriet to some kind of "declaration" on Elton's part. Doesn't work. Emma's sister's family comes to visit. Knightley tells Emma that he thinks Elton likes her, not Harriet. Harriet gets sick, can't come to the Christmas dinner. Christmas dinner. Emma realizes Knightley is right. Elton makes a fool of himself in the carriage. Emma is distraught. She tells Harriet all about it. Emma and Knightley argue about what sort of a person Frank Churchill is.

Wow. Nine long-winded chapters to tell us that. This story is moving in-term-in-ab-ly slowly. I agree, if this book was submitted for publication today, it would be severely truncated. There seem to be entire chapters written to establish one point, which could have been accomplished in a few paragraphs.

I don't know if I like Emma. After the debacle involving Elton, maybe I like her a little more. She seemed to have been blindsided by the whole thing. In the first chapters she seemed a little cocky, and maybe this will make her a little less so. Clearly, Frank Churchill will be an important character (he already is, and we still haven't met him). I must say, none of the characters have been developed strongly enough for me to like or dislike any of them. They're all kind of blah.

I do hope the plot picks up a bit. No, I'm not expecting spaceships, monsters, or train robberies - I think this is a very talky book from beginning to end - but so far, the plot isn't terribly interesting.
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Post by ALynnPowers »

Heeeeeey I have an idea!!! Updated schedule time!!!
And!!! A week's break in there for the holidays!!!

Week 3 (November 15): volume 2, chapter 1-6
Week 4 (November 22): volume 2, chapter 7-12
Week 5 (December 6): volume 2, chapter 13-18

So basically, we have 4 weeks to read the next volume!

Then week 6 (December 13): volume 3, chapter 1-6
Week 7 (December 20): volume 3, chapter 7-12
Week 8 (end of 2015): volume 3, chapter 13-19 (end)

Then finish the book before the end of the year!!
How does that sound???

-- 13 Nov 2015, 18:43 --

Also, my feelings are pretty much the same at this point. I don't much care for Emma as a character and the plot is just so slow to do anything.

I also don't much care for how Emma was like, the "victim" in the whole Elton situation. I don't feel sorry for her at all just because some man liked her and she didn't see it coming. Yet, here she is, so perfect that she's humble to the idea that someone could possibly prefer her over her friend. She's like the ultimate Maey Sue .

-- 17 Nov 2015, 20:40 --

Week 3's comments:

UGH.... I totally could not get into the reading this week at all. I read 6 chapters and then didn't write anything immediately because I wanted to give myself time to reflect before I put my thoughts to paper... but what happened was that I couldn't come up with anything to reflect on because nothing of interest stood out to me in this chapter.

I think I might have giggled at Emma's dad at one point. For like, half a second.

And the new guy finally showed up (Frank Churchill), and isn't he just a barrel of pleasantness covered with sprinkles? The whole world is like a shiny toy to him. My first instinct prediction: he and Jane Fairfax are going to end up together.
At first I thought he might end up with Harriet, but after another four seconds debate with myself, I decided that I just can't see him with either of our two main girls because Emma is such a gossip and full of herself and has made Harriet miserable by turning her into her stuck-up clone.

Hey, am I like Emma? You think I am stuck-up, right? Most people do.

Also... we're almost halfway through the book and I have yet to see a plot to this story. It's just about people getting married for whatever reasons. And sitting around talking. Lots and lots of talking and discussion their opinions on people. And more talking. This is why I don't like talking, never mind that I am just really bad at it.

Okay, I have nothing else now!
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