God is perfect: he cannot change, he cannot please or hurt. How so?

Use this forum to discuss the December 2020 Book of the month, "Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe" by Hilary L Hunt M.D.
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Re: God is perfect: he cannot change, he cannot please or hurt. How so?

Post by Cynthia Olyy »

It is all from the author's philosophy which I do not have a problem with. However, the Bible teaches that God Is perfect because he's God. Whatever makes him God, makes him perfect. That is my stance.
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Post by K+SQUARE »

God is God and He is perfect. He gave us the commandments to show us the ways by which we can please Him and how unhappy He is when we follow other gods. The more we delve into this topic, the more questions it will generate.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

K+SQUARE wrote: 21 Dec 2020, 04:59 God is God and He is perfect. He gave us the commandments to show us the ways by which we can please Him and how unhappy He is when we follow other gods. The more we delve into this topic, the more questions it will generate.
But is it wrong to ask questions? The fact that there are questions begs to ask (ironically) whether this is entirely true, if that makes sense? Not trying to argue, just proposing an idea!
"I decided a while ago not to deny myself the simpler pleasures of existence" - Augustus Waters (The Fault in Our Stars)
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Post by K+SQUARE »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 21 Dec 2020, 08:44
K+SQUARE wrote: 21 Dec 2020, 04:59 God is God and He is perfect. He gave us the commandments to show us the ways by which we can please Him and how unhappy He is when we follow other gods. The more we delve into this topic, the more questions it will generate.
But is it wrong to ask questions? The fact that there are questions begs to ask (ironically) whether this is entirely true, if that makes sense? Not trying to argue, just proposing an idea!
It is appropriate to ask questions. I'm only saying there will be more questions than answers.
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Post by Ahbed Nadir »

I think the statement God does not please nor hurt is the author trying to portray a god as an infallible force. One that neither needs nor relys on anyone for anything and as such is not vulnerable or prone to mistakes or imperfections. However I dont particularly agree with this. God CAN be pleased and He CAN be hurt. Viewing God as a perfect being doesn't mean he feels nothing . It just means that he is so far above us that in our eyes or compared to us, he is perfection
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Post by Kenesha Latoya Fowler »

AnnieOgoo wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 06:42 In a bid to explain God's perfection, the author states that;
a. God cannot change
b. He cannot please or hurt.
The reason behind this later conclusion being that: "Admitting the possibility of such would be admitting to an inherent defect in God’s perfection and would completely negate the concept of perfectness. Pleasing him admits to the existence of a pleasure port that is insufficiently filled, a partial void, a defect, and certainly not perfect. Hurting him would admit to the existence of cracks in His armor where noxious agents could penetrate and cause damage eliminating His perfection."
I find the reasons behind this conclusion (that God is perfect) to be unconvincing, even faulty.
Yes, I believe God is perfect, but not because he cannot be pleased or hurt. That would make him an unfeeling God. Perhaps he is perfect because he is the highest authority and the standard for perfection, i.e God is perfect because he is God.
This whole syllogism brings to mind the question, "What is perfection?"
So I ask:
a. Is God perfect because He cannot change, or please or hurt? And;
b. What is perfection?
I don't agree with the author's definition of what makes God perfect. As you said, the conditions he pointed out make God seem unfeeling, which He is not. The Bible likens His affection towards us to that of a father's to his child (I mean in a right, unperverted relationship!). The Bible also says that we shouldn't grieve the Holy Spirit (which means that we can), that without faith it is impossible to please God (which shows that He can be pleased), and that a lying tongue is an abomination to Him (something that obviously displeases Him). The author clearly doesn't agree with any of this. I get the impression that he doesn't agree with much of anything in the Bible. Which I find ironic, because he obviously still believes in the God of the Bible (as opposed to the one(s) of the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita, for example); he just chooses to believe differently. Still none of this is what makes God perfect (or imperfect, for that matter).

So to answer your questions, no, I don't think that's why God is perfect. He's perfect because He is, and I don't think our finite human minds are entirely capable of comprehending Him and all that He is. As to what is perfection, I think that can be both subjective and/or objective depending on what you're describing.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Kenesha L Fowler wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 13:31
AnnieOgoo wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 06:42 In a bid to explain God's perfection, the author states that;
a. God cannot change
b. He cannot please or hurt.
The reason behind this later conclusion being that: "Admitting the possibility of such would be admitting to an inherent defect in God’s perfection and would completely negate the concept of perfectness. Pleasing him admits to the existence of a pleasure port that is insufficiently filled, a partial void, a defect, and certainly not perfect. Hurting him would admit to the existence of cracks in His armor where noxious agents could penetrate and cause damage eliminating His perfection."
I find the reasons behind this conclusion (that God is perfect) to be unconvincing, even faulty.
Yes, I believe God is perfect, but not because he cannot be pleased or hurt. That would make him an unfeeling God. Perhaps he is perfect because he is the highest authority and the standard for perfection, i.e God is perfect because he is God.
This whole syllogism brings to mind the question, "What is perfection?"
So I ask:
a. Is God perfect because He cannot change, or please or hurt? And;
b. What is perfection?
I don't agree with the author's definition of what makes God perfect. As you said, the conditions he pointed out make God seem unfeeling, which He is not. The Bible likens His affection towards us to that of a father's to his child (I mean in a right, unperverted relationship!). The Bible also says that we shouldn't grieve the Holy Spirit (which means that we can), that without faith it is impossible to please God (which shows that He can be pleased), and that a lying tongue is an abomination to Him (something that obviously displeases Him). The author clearly doesn't agree with any of this. I get the impression that he doesn't agree with much of anything in the Bible. Which I find ironic, because he obviously still believes in the God of the Bible (as opposed to the one(s) of the Qur'an or the Bhagavad Gita, for example); he just chooses to believe differently. Still none of this is what makes God perfect (or imperfect, for that matter).

So to answer your questions, no, I don't think that's why God is perfect. He's perfect because He is, and I don't think our finite human minds are entirely capable of comprehending Him and all that He is. As to what is perfection, I think that can be both subjective and/or objective depending on what you're describing.
I think that not only is perfection subjective, God's perfectness is also subjective. What you see as a perfect God is clearly not what the author sees as a perfect god. You can believe in the Christian god without being of a particular denomination or faith, and I think that can also determine how you define the perfectness of God!
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Post by Kenesha Latoya Fowler »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 17:15

I think that not only is perfection subjective, God's perfectness is also subjective. What you see as a perfect God is clearly not what the author sees as a perfect god. You can believe in the Christian god without being of a particular denomination or faith, and I think that can also determine how you define the perfectness of God!
Oh, I'm there with you on believing in God has nothing (nor should it ) to do with denomination. That is one of my biggest contentions with Christianity today. So much confusion, hypocrisy, manipulation... I totally get why the author is against organized religion.

Like I mentioned before, perfection can be subjective and/or objective, depending on what is being ascribed the attribute. That said, I hesitate to say God's perfectness is subjective. He is perfect because that's His nature, who He is. It doesn't matter what we think defines Him as perfect. I mean, if He's perfect according to what we determine makes Him perfect, then it stands to reason that by the same token we can determine what makes Him imperfect, don't you think? We become His judges. That's just my take on the subject. I think the author is well within his right to say why he thinks God is perfect to [/i]him[/i]; we all have that right, I'd say. Because at the end of the day what really matters is our own personal relationship with the Almighty.
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Kenesha L Fowler wrote: 24 Dec 2020, 10:54
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 23 Dec 2020, 17:15

I think that not only is perfection subjective, God's perfectness is also subjective. What you see as a perfect God is clearly not what the author sees as a perfect god. You can believe in the Christian god without being of a particular denomination or faith, and I think that can also determine how you define the perfectness of God!
Oh, I'm there with you on believing in God has nothing (nor should it ) to do with denomination. That is one of my biggest contentions with Christianity today. So much confusion, hypocrisy, manipulation... I totally get why the author is against organized religion.

Like I mentioned before, perfection can be subjective and/or objective, depending on what is being ascribed the attribute. That said, I hesitate to say God's perfectness is subjective. He is perfect because that's His nature, who He is. It doesn't matter what we think defines Him as perfect. I mean, if He's perfect according to what we determine makes Him perfect, then it stands to reason that by the same token we can determine what makes Him imperfect, don't you think? We become His judges. That's just my take on the subject. I think the author is well within his right to say why he thinks God is perfect to [/i]him[/i]; we all have that right, I'd say. Because at the end of the day what really matters is our own personal relationship with the Almighty.
I completely agree with you. I see what you mean about the subjectiveness of perfection could lead to imperfection, I didn't think of that! A personal connection with God is definitely the most important, and knowing why God is perfect to you also helps to define how important you perceive that relationship to be!
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Post by Eriny Youssef »

AnnieOgoo wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 00:29
Eriny Youssef wrote: 13 Dec 2020, 12:43
AnnieOgoo wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 06:42 In a bid to explain God's perfection, the author states that;
a. God cannot change
b. He cannot please or hurt.
The reason behind this later conclusion being that: "Admitting the possibility of such would be admitting to an inherent defect in God’s perfection and would completely negate the concept of perfectness. Pleasing him admits to the existence of a pleasure port that is insufficiently filled, a partial void, a defect, and certainly not perfect. Hurting him would admit to the existence of cracks in His armor where noxious agents could penetrate and cause damage eliminating His perfection."
I find the reasons behind this conclusion (that God is perfect) to be unconvincing, even faulty.
Yes, I believe God is perfect, but not because he cannot be pleased or hurt. That would make him an unfeeling God. Perhaps he is perfect because he is the highest authority and the standard for perfection, i.e God is perfect because he is God.
This whole syllogism brings to mind the question, "What is perfection?"
So I ask:
a. Is God perfect because He cannot change, or please or hurt? And;
b. What is perfection?
The way I see this is that God is not subject to our doings. And that makes sense. God is not there to please and we cannot hurt God.

But I agree that our belief that God is perfect shouldn't be based on just the fact the He cannot change, please or hurt. I'm not a big fan of the wording of this statement either. The word "cannot" in particular, in my opinion, is not the most suitable to describe it.
Thank you for your opinion. I like your statement that, "The word "cannot"...is not the most suitable to describe it." Infact, the word 'cannot' is a limitation itself which by implication, disposes God's perfection.
Yes, exactly. It contradicts the intended message the sentence is aimed to deliver. I get that the author wanted to communicate the idea of a firm, stable Creator who isn't changing based on our pleasure or pains. But I just don't see that as a valid judgment on the "perfection" of God.
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Post by Thea Frederick »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 12:36 I think it means that He is not biased either way. A god that can be pleased is one that holds a bias to what pleases Him, the same with what can hurt Him, especially since what is seen to hurt Him is subject to one's beliefs. So if He cannot be pleased or hurt, there is no bias there and in that way, He is perfect. I don't believe an all loving god is one that can be angered or hurt, or one that punishes people, because again, that would be a defect in His perfection. I believe He has feeling, but it is just a feeling of love, one that cannot be faulted no matter what. Therefore, He is perfect.
So we can not please God? Then why would we obey His commands if he didn't care a thing about it either way? And what about righteous judgement? Is God not the just judge? And does not a just judge give to each according to their deserts?
ir
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Post by ReaderAisha2020 »

Of course we cannot say God cannot be hurt. If so he would not be powerful and would be overcome by those who hurt.

I guess perfect means having no defect or else and being fully capable
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Post by Maddie Atkinson »

Thea Frederick wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 19:19
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 12:36 I think it means that He is not biased either way. A god that can be pleased is one that holds a bias to what pleases Him, the same with what can hurt Him, especially since what is seen to hurt Him is subject to one's beliefs. So if He cannot be pleased or hurt, there is no bias there and in that way, He is perfect. I don't believe an all loving god is one that can be angered or hurt, or one that punishes people, because again, that would be a defect in His perfection. I believe He has feeling, but it is just a feeling of love, one that cannot be faulted no matter what. Therefore, He is perfect.
So we can not please God? Then why would we obey His commands if he didn't care a thing about it either way? And what about righteous judgement? Is God not the just judge? And does not a just judge give to each according to their deserts?
ir
Like any religion, that is just my belief and my opinion. I don't think He can be pleased, but not because He's bad, or unjust, but because what pleases God is subject to your beliefs. Some people might think that shooting up a gay bar is what God wants and what will please Him, but obviously that is not a good thing to do. I think that He does feel, but He loves us all, that is His feeling. If He can be pleased or hurt, then He is biased, and I don't think that one person can please God more than another, He loves us equally and without bias. I don't think we are judged on what we do with our lives, but rather the faith that we have in God. The people who use religion as an excuse to do bad things in God's name, do not have true faith, because if they did they would know not to do that. The Commandments are there as a guide for being a good person. It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, murder is wrong, for example. That is not just obeying His commands, that is just common sense. But that is just my opinion and my belief.
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Post by hlhunt33 »

Please allow me to attempt help. God is Perfect Rationality. He (It) exists in eternity, a state of being which allows for 'no change'. Time is a measure of change. If God were to change, he would no longer exist in eternity---he would become a 'temporal god', and certainly not perfect. The word perfect means complete, nothing lacking. Emotion for God is impossible because emotions involve change (happy one moment, sad the next moment, angry the next moment). Please notice the word moment involves time---by its very definition, there is no time in eternity. Hilary Hunt
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Post by Thea Frederick »

Maddie Atkinson wrote: 31 Dec 2020, 07:33
Thea Frederick wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 19:19
Maddie Atkinson wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 12:36 I think it means that He is not biased either way. A god that can be pleased is one that holds a bias to what pleases Him, the same with what can hurt Him, especially since what is seen to hurt Him is subject to one's beliefs. So if He cannot be pleased or hurt, there is no bias there and in that way, He is perfect. I don't believe an all loving god is one that can be angered or hurt, or one that punishes people, because again, that would be a defect in His perfection. I believe He has feeling, but it is just a feeling of love, one that cannot be faulted no matter what. Therefore, He is perfect.
So we can not please God? Then why would we obey His commands if he didn't care a thing about it either way? And what about righteous judgement? Is God not the just judge? And does not a just judge give to each according to their deserts?
Like any religion, that is just my belief and my opinion. I don't think He can be pleased, but not because He's bad, or unjust, but because what pleases God is subject to your beliefs. Some people might think that shooting up a gay bar is what God wants and what will please Him, but obviously that is not a good thing to do. I think that He does feel, but He loves us all, that is His feeling. If He can be pleased or hurt, then He is biased, and I don't think that one person can please God more than another, He loves us equally and without bias. I don't think we are judged on what we do with our lives, but rather the faith that we have in God. The people who use religion as an excuse to do bad things in God's name, do not have true faith, because if they did they would know not to do that. The Commandments are there as a guide for being a good person. It doesn't matter if you believe in God or not, murder is wrong, for example. That is not just obeying His commands, that is just common sense. But that is just my opinion and my belief.
So what makes murder bad? Don't get me wrong, I believe murder is bad, but that is because of my religion. But for what reason is murder bad if you take religion out of the picture?
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