What do you think about GenTech putting Project Tau and Kata in the same cell

[funninessishappiness]

One thing that I didn't understand was why would Dennison and Mason put them in the same room together. Those two KNOW the truth and should have known that Kata isn't genetically made to follow orders or be complicit. I find it to be agitating. It's like they were purposely ignoring the fact that there was a human in the cell with a project, something they never wanted in the first place. The scientists didn't want too many people close to Tau because they knew how impressionable Tau is. Dennison and Mason knew that he was a human and ignored it. They tried to act like he was a project when he wasn't. To me, that's like putting a tiger and a lion in a cage, then painting stripes on the lion and calling it a tiger. It makes no sense. The lion is a lion, regardless of how many strips you put on it, it's still a lion. Kata is still a human and to put a human in a cage with an extremely impressionable clone is asking for trouble. It kills me because I know Mason isn't that bright, but Dennison is. It astounds me that Dennison never thought of that.

[Jude Austin]

Dennison and Mason knew that he was a human and ignored it. They tried to act like he was a project when he wasn't. To me, that's like putting a tiger and a lion in a cage, then painting stripes on the lion and calling it a tiger. It makes no sense. The lion is a lion, regardless of how many strips you put on it, it's still a lion.

Okay, stepping in to clear this up as there are a few things that many people seem to be forgetting or missing

The arguments against putting Tau and Kalin in together work fine all the time Kalin's there as a human (ie, if Mason's explanation had been the truth about him: "this kid did something very stupid and he's agreed to stick around for two weeks to make up for it.") However, the success of Mason's entire plot hinges on the rest of the scientists believing that Kalin is a Project. For the scheme to work, Dennison has no choice but to act accordingly. However many problems he can foresee, however stupid he thinks it is, he's now complicit and he has no choice but to go along with it. Remember, the decision to put Kalin and Tau in together came from Mason, not Dennison

To go back to the tiger/lion example; yes, Dennison knows that's what he's doing, but nobody else in the lab knows or can ever be allowed to know. From their point of view, Dennison putting "Project Kata" in a different room is the same as saying, "We have a tiger. Here's another tiger from a separate zoo, but we're going to go to all the time and expense of building it a separate enclosure instead of putting it in with the first tiger."

From Dennison's POV, there are basically three huge problems with billeting Kalin separately:

1. It draws too much attention. The last thing he needs is for his colleagues - particularly Renfield, who we know is senior enough to make his life very difficult (RENFIELD: "I am one of the top people in this facility, Kalin!" LIN: "I happen to be the second most senior person involved with the training and acclimation, at least until Dr. Renfield gets back.") - to start wondering what's so special about this particular Project. If Kalin really had been a Project, he would have been put in with Tau, as Tau's is the only room suitable for Project containment (remember the super-thick door? )

2. It's a laboratory and research facility. We know that Projects are a very new and expensive development; most labs wouldn't have the budget to go into Project creation, and they're far too expensive and prone to failing (ie, dying) before completion for any lab to make more than one at a time. This means that there would only be one room suitable for containment, and that's Tau's. Even if that weren't the case, efficiency is the name of the game, and every single room in the laboratory would have its own purpose. Dennison can't just dump a bunch of equipment in the corridor and reassign the people working there for the purpose of giving Kalin his own room, however much he might want to.

3. While GenTech could conceivably build another room on the outside of the station (as someone pointed out, they're in space, after all!) it would take a large amount of time and money, and Kalin would still have to sleep somewhere while it was being built. Granted, going in with Tau on a temporary basis would work, but Dennison would still come under a lot of suspicion from his coworkers for blowing a chunk of GenTech's budget on another room when they already have a perfectly good one available.

GenTech also can't extend into the station for much the same reason. Remember that the borders between GenTech and the public areas are very clearly marked. Also, from Dennison's POV, Kalin is a huge flight risk, particularly after he knows he's not going to be allowed to go home. The more securely he's contained, the lower that risk becomes.

4. Dennison himself has a tremendous amount of influence over Tau. We know from Tau's conversation with Kalin that he's the first human Tau met, the first human whose name he learned and the one who has been, to all intents and purposes, raising him. He believes his own influence and that of everyone around him would be enough to counter anything Kalin might say. For much of the book, he's proven right: when Kalin asks Tau if he's ever considered leaving, Tau's first instinct is to shut him down completely, even though they've been living and suffering together for several months now and Tau has already suffered sexual assault; he's too cowed to believe they have any chance of getting away and too frightened of the consequences for trying.

[funninessishappiness]

Okay, stepping in to clear this up as there are a few things that many people seem to be forgetting or missing

The arguments against putting Tau and Kalin in together work fine all the time Kalin's there as a human (ie, if Mason's explanation had been the truth about him: "this kid did something very stupid and he's agreed to stick around for two weeks to make up for it.") However, the success of Mason's entire plot hinges on the rest of the scientists believing that Kalin is a Project. For the scheme to work, Dennison has no choice but to act accordingly. However many problems he can foresee, however stupid he thinks it is, he's now complicit and he has no choice but to go along with it. Remember, the decision to put Kalin and Tau in together came from Mason, not Dennison

To go back to the tiger/lion example; yes, Dennison knows that's what he's doing, but nobody else in the lab knows or can ever be allowed to know. From their point of view, Dennison putting "Project Kata" in a different room is the same as saying, "We have a tiger. Here's another tiger from a separate zoo, but we're going to go to all the time and expense of building it a separate enclosure instead of putting it in with the first tiger."

From Dennison's POV, there are basically three huge problems with billeting Kalin separately:

1. It draws too much attention. The last thing he needs is for his colleagues - particularly Renfield, who we know is senior enough to make his life very difficult (RENFIELD: "I am one of the top people in this facility, Kalin!" LIN: "I happen to be the second most senior person involved with the training and acclimation, at least until Dr. Renfield gets back.") - to start wondering what's so special about this particular Project. If Kalin really had been a Project, he would have been put in with Tau, as Tau's is the only room suitable for Project containment (remember the super-thick door? )

2. It's a laboratory and research facility. We know that Projects are a very new and expensive development; most labs wouldn't have the budget to go into Project creation, and they're far too expensive and prone to failing (ie, dying) before completion for any lab to make more than one at a time. This means that there would only be one room suitable for containment, and that's Tau's. Even if that weren't the case, efficiency is the name of the game, and every single room in the laboratory would have its own purpose. Dennison can't just dump a bunch of equipment in the corridor and reassign the people working there for the purpose of giving Kalin his own room, however much he might want to.

3. While GenTech could conceivably build another room on the outside of the station (as someone pointed out, they're in space, after all!) it would take a large amount of time and money, and Kalin would still have to sleep somewhere while it was being built. Granted, going in with Tau on a temporary basis would work, but Dennison would still come under a lot of suspicion from his coworkers for blowing a chunk of GenTech's budget on another room when they already have a perfectly good one available.

GenTech also can't extend into the station for much the same reason. Remember that the borders between GenTech and the public areas are very clearly marked. Also, from Dennison's POV, Kalin is a huge flight risk, particularly after he knows he's not going to be allowed to go home. The more securely he's contained, the lower that risk becomes.

4. Dennison himself has a tremendous amount of influence over Tau. We know from Tau's conversation with Kalin that he's the first human Tau met, the first human whose name he learned and the one who has been, to all intents and purposes, raising him. He believes his own influence and that of everyone around him would be enough to counter anything Kalin might say. For much of the book, he's proven right: when Kalin asks Tau if he's ever considered leaving, Tau's first instinct is to shut him down completely, even though they've been living and suffering together for several months now and Tau has already suffered sexual assault; he's too cowed to believe they have any chance of getting away and too frightened of the consequences for trying.

That makes a lot of sense! I understand that Dennison believed that his influence was more powerful and you're right, it would be simpler to put Kata in the same room as Tau. Sure they could build another section, but that would take way too much time and the whole reason for why Mason turned Kalin into Kata was to save money. I honestly didn't think about those two points. I knew that Dennison believed he could control Tau, but I didn't think about how long it would take for them to make another section or the fact that it costs so much money it wouldn't be worth it. Thank you for clearing that up!

[Jocelyn Eastman]

I didn’t really think it was that bad that they were roomed together. I thought it made sense actually. There was as much a chance that Tau would help dehumanize Kata as there was Kata to humanize Tau. It really could have gone either way.

[raindropreader]

GenTech did MANY foolish things. Honestly yes keeping them in the same cell was a huge mistake, obviously they would talk to each other. Another mistake they made was definitely not altering the scientists more to Katas backstory in a way that protected their secret plot. Although the memory implanting was a perfect excuse I think allowing Kata to talk to the scientists at all was a mistake. You just never know what could be said that could alert the scientists the backstory was false.

[Jocelyn Eastman]

GenTech did MANY foolish things. Honestly yes keeping them in the same cell was a huge mistake, obviously they would talk to each other. Another mistake they made was definitely not altering the scientists more to Katas backstory in a way that protected their secret plot. Although the memory implanting was a perfect excuse I think allowing Kata to talk to the scientists at all was a mistake. You just never know what could be said that could alert the scientists the backstory was false.

I think the backstory was a bigger mistake than the rooming situation. If they could do memory implants, why not implant the memory of being a clone to Kata? I know you can only do a little bit, but you could make a small memory somewhere of his parents admitting he’s secretly a clone or something like that instead of convincing the scientists he’s a clone without back up of any kind.

[Jude Austin]

If they could do memory implants, why not implant the memory of being a clone to Kata? I know you can only do a little bit, but you could make a small memory somewhere of his parents admitting he’s secretly a clone or something like that instead of convincing the scientists he’s a clone without back up of any kind.

Again, clearing it up: it's stated very clearly in the book that those people who perform memory implants are limited in what they can do ("We can't invent new memories. But we can scan the brain of another person, copy their memories and place them into the target's mind.") This is coming from the CEO of Internal Memoriam, which specializes in memory implants in the same way that GenTech specializes in cloning If he says it's not possible to invent a fake memory, then it's really not possible

In other words, if Kalin's parents had a memory of admitting that their son was really a clone, then yes, GenTech (or Internal Memoriam) could copy it and implant it into Kalin's mind. If it was anyone else, the procedure wouldn't work; Kalin would simply know that the people telling him that weren't his parents, and that the conversation wasn't taking place in his house Hence Dennison chooses to gaslight him into believing he's a Project instead. That, and Dennison and Mason are committing a serious crime and the fewer people who know about Kalin's being in the lab, the better.

The thought of copying memories from one person and then implanting those copied memories into a clone, however, is possible, which is why none of the scientists question it apart from Renfield. In his case, it's not because he doesn't believe the procedure's possible - like most people in GenTech, he doesn't know a great deal about it, which is why he has to call Jimmy for information - it's because the timing doesn't work

[Jocelyn Eastman]

If they could do memory implants, why not implant the memory of being a clone to Kata? I know you can only do a little bit, but you could make a small memory somewhere of his parents admitting he’s secretly a clone or something like that instead of convincing the scientists he’s a clone without back up of any kind.

Again, clearing it up: it's stated very clearly in the book that those people who perform memory implants are limited in what they can do ("We can't invent new memories. But we can scan the brain of another person, copy their memories and place them into the target's mind.") This is coming from the CEO of Internal Memoriam, which specializes in memory implants in the same way that GenTech specializes in cloning If he says it's not possible to invent a fake memory, then it's really not possible

In other words, if Kalin's parents had a memory of admitting that their son was really a clone, then yes, GenTech (or Internal Memoriam) could copy it and implant it into Kalin's mind. If it was anyone else, the procedure wouldn't work; Kalin would simply know that the people telling him that weren't his parents, and that the conversation wasn't taking place in his house Hence Dennison chooses to gaslight him into believing he's a Project instead. That, and Dennison and Mason are committing a serious crime and the fewer people who know about Kalin's being in the lab, the better.

The thought of copying memories from one person and then implanting those copied memories into a clone, however, is possible, which is why none of the scientists question it apart from Renfield. In his case, it's not because he doesn't believe the procedure's possible - like most people in GenTech, he doesn't know a great deal about it, which is why he has to call Jimmy for information - it's because the timing doesn't work

Didn’t they also say that even though implanting false memory isn’t possible, they could implant impressions? I thought they said they do that based on family member accounts for lost memory and that they really aren’t copying memory at all with memory implant. That’s what I’m talking about.

[Jocelyn Eastman]

If they could do memory implants, why not implant the memory of being a clone to Kata? I know you can only do a little bit, but you could make a small memory somewhere of his parents admitting he’s secretly a clone or something like that instead of convincing the scientists he’s a clone without back up of any kind.

Again, clearing it up: it's stated very clearly in the book that those people who perform memory implants are limited in what they can do ("We can't invent new memories. But we can scan the brain of another person, copy their memories and place them into the target's mind.") This is coming from the CEO of Internal Memoriam, which specializes in memory implants in the same way that GenTech specializes in cloning If he says it's not possible to invent a fake memory, then it's really not possible

In other words, if Kalin's parents had a memory of admitting that their son was really a clone, then yes, GenTech (or Internal Memoriam) could copy it and implant it into Kalin's mind. If it was anyone else, the procedure wouldn't work; Kalin would simply know that the people telling him that weren't his parents, and that the conversation wasn't taking place in his house Hence Dennison chooses to gaslight him into believing he's a Project instead. That, and Dennison and Mason are committing a serious crime and the fewer people who know about Kalin's being in the lab, the better.

The thought of copying memories from one person and then implanting those copied memories into a clone, however, is possible, which is why none of the scientists question it apart from Renfield. In his case, it's not because he doesn't believe the procedure's possible - like most people in GenTech, he doesn't know a great deal about it, which is why he has to call Jimmy for information - it's because the timing doesn't work

Or better yet, I don’t remember if they could copy specific memories, but they could copy Tau’s memory of waking up as a clone.

[Jude Austin]

If they could do memory implants, why not implant the memory of being a clone to Kata? I know you can only do a little bit, but you could make a small memory somewhere of his parents admitting he’s secretly a clone or something like that instead of convincing the scientists he’s a clone without back up of any kind.

Again, clearing it up: it's stated very clearly in the book that those people who perform memory implants are limited in what they can do ("We can't invent new memories. But we can scan the brain of another person, copy their memories and place them into the target's mind.") This is coming from the CEO of Internal Memoriam, which specializes in memory implants in the same way that GenTech specializes in cloning If he says it's not possible to invent a fake memory, then it's really not possible

In other words, if Kalin's parents had a memory of admitting that their son was really a clone, then yes, GenTech (or Internal Memoriam) could copy it and implant it into Kalin's mind. If it was anyone else, the procedure wouldn't work; Kalin would simply know that the people telling him that weren't his parents, and that the conversation wasn't taking place in his house Hence Dennison chooses to gaslight him into believing he's a Project instead. That, and Dennison and Mason are committing a serious crime and the fewer people who know about Kalin's being in the lab, the better.

The thought of copying memories from one person and then implanting those copied memories into a clone, however, is possible, which is why none of the scientists question it apart from Renfield. In his case, it's not because he doesn't believe the procedure's possible - like most people in GenTech, he doesn't know a great deal about it, which is why he has to call Jimmy for information - it's because the timing doesn't work

Didn’t they also say that even though implanting false memory isn’t possible, they could implant impressions? I thought they said they do that based on family member accounts for lost memory and that they really aren’t copying memory at all with memory implant. That’s what I’m talking about.

Ah, I see what you mean now No, they said they could implant triggers that might help spark an existing memory. ("We plant something in someone's brain like the name of a novelist. When they see a book by that novelist, it might trigger a memory of what that book was about.")

For example (going super-simple here for the sake of this!) say you have someone who has complete amnesia and who doesn't remember any of the books they've read. Their family tells Internal Memoriam that this person's favorite author was Stephen King. IM plants a hypnotic trigger of Stephen King, so that when the amnesiac sees or hears that name, there's the chance it'll link with a memory ("Oh yeah! He wrote Carrie. I remember reading that now!")

Basically, existing facts are implantable. This means that IM could give someone a trigger of "Stephen King = writer" because that's just helping the person remember what they already know. But they can't give that person a fake memory of going out for dinner with Stephen King, because that never happened, nor can they give them a trigger of "Stephen King = ballet dancer" because there are no facts or existing memories to support that.

Obviously, I'm grossly oversimplifying To sum it up, the memory triggers can only work if the memories exist in the first place. In Kalin's case, they obviously don't, so there's nothing to work from

Or better yet, I don’t remember if they could copy specific memories, but they could copy Tau’s memory of waking up as a clone.

Yes, that would be doable in theory. But there are several issues with it:

1. It would still be Tau's memory. That means that Kalin would have a whole bunch of memories of his own life, looking like he does, followed by a memory of himself being a little taller and much more athletic, and Dennison telling him that his name was "Project Tau." This is like you having your normal memories, followed by a single memory of yourself where you have completely different colored hair and eyes, you're four inches taller, and people are calling you by a different name It'll confuse you, but you won't believe it's really you. Don't forget that Kalin's already seen Tau; he'd know him, and he'd know it was Tau's memory. This isn't so much of an issue when you're giving someone a shared memory (such as a first date) as it'd be identical, if a bit strange (like you were looking at yourself from the outside) but to give someone a completely random memory...yeah, they wouldn't buy into it.

2. As we learn in the same chapter: "You'd never find someone to do memory implants on a Project, you know that. We're still not sure how they affect the nervous system and GenTech isn't likely to take chances." and "Memory copying is a very delicate and invasive business." The reason Dennison gets away with his cover story for as long as he does is because - as is evidenced by Renfield's asking - most GenTech personnel don't know that, and since he never gives them the name of the lab, nobody can check either, although they would assume that the memory implants had been outsourced to IM; in the same way that IM doesn't understand the ins and outs of human cloning, people at GenTech don't understand the ins and outs of memory work. Both are far more complicated than the other suspects

3. Tau is the only Project in a long line of twenty who is viable enough to train and sell. They've spent billions of dollars on failed Projects, Projects that died, Projects that - in Epsilon's case - were crazy. Why on earth would Dennison risk performing an illegal operation that he has no idea how to perform and very possibly damaging or killing Tau and Kalin (Tau during the copying, Kalin during the implantation) and drawing a lot of attention to himself and Kalin in the process, which is the last thing he needs or wants, to implant a memory that Kalin won't even believe?

So yes; the idea of using memory implants sounds cool, but in the world of the book, it really wouldn't be very practical Dennison knows he can gaslight Kalin, and that's a far safer option

[DEEPA PUJARI]

They assumed the Projects will abide to the orders they give them. I remember when both Dennison and Mason were conversing when the Projects escaped, one of them said that the projects were trained to be obedient and be less harmful. Little did they know that tables would turn and jeopardize their mission.

In the book, there are a few places that tell us that Dennison punished Tau because he was becoming disobedient because of KATA. I think he should have seen the storm brew and put them in different cells.

[DEEPA PUJARI]

GenTech did MANY foolish things. Honestly yes keeping them in the same cell was a huge mistake, obviously they would talk to each other. Another mistake they made was definitely not altering the scientists more to Katas backstory in a way that protected their secret plot. Although the memory implanting was a perfect excuse I think allowing Kata to talk to the scientists at all was a mistake. You just never know what could be said that could alert the scientists the backstory was false.

I think the backstory was a bigger mistake than the rooming situation. If they could do memory implants, why not implant the memory of being a clone to Kata? I know you can only do a little bit, but you could make a small memory somewhere of his parents admitting he’s secretly a clone or something like that instead of convincing the scientists he’s a clone without back up of any kind.

In the book she did mention that memory implants was being tried but none had seen any proofs. So I guess that is what Mason anticipated will happen and lied to his scientists.

[DEEPA PUJARI]

GenTech did MANY foolish things. Honestly yes keeping them in the same cell was a huge mistake, obviously they would talk to each other. Another mistake they made was definitely not altering the scientists more to Katas backstory in a way that protected their secret plot. Although the memory implanting was a perfect excuse I think allowing Kata to talk to the scientists at all was a mistake. You just never know what could be said that could alert the scientists the backstory was false.

Can't agree less.

[DEEPA PUJARI]

One thing that I didn't understand was why would Dennison and Mason put them in the same room together. Those two KNOW the truth and should have known that Kata isn't genetically made to follow orders or be complicit. I find it to be agitating. It's like they were purposely ignoring the fact that there was a human in the cell with a project, something they never wanted in the first place. The scientists didn't want too many people close to Tau because they knew how impressionable Tau is. Dennison and Mason knew that he was a human and ignored it. They tried to act like he was a project when he wasn't. To me, that's like putting a tiger and a lion in a cage, then painting stripes on the lion and calling it a tiger. It makes no sense. The lion is a lion, regardless of how many strips you put on it, it's still a lion. Kata is still a human and to put a human in a cage with an extremely impressionable clone is asking for trouble. It kills me because I know Mason isn't that bright, but Dennison is. It astounds me that Dennison never thought of that.

Agree. I wonder what the story would be if they were in separate cells.

[DEEPA PUJARI]

You bring up an interesting point. I never thought about that...

I'm sure GenTech's facility is quite large (they're rich and autonomous, after all), so space can't be an issue. They probably had more than enough space to put them in separate rooms. Dennison indeed knew Kata's influence on Tau... but the other scientists seemed to be either oblivious or not care. Perhaps they didn't think anyone would have a lasting effect on Projects except them, because they are the creators (in their minds).

Overconfidence could be a possibility.