Was there any way Natalie could justify her feelings for a married man?

Use this forum to discuss the April 2018 Book of the Month, "Ironbark Hill" by Jennie Linnane
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EllieA
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Re: Was there any way Natalie could justify her feelings for a married man?

Post by EllieA »

Any person can fall in love, but that doesn't make us magically not responsible for our actions. Although the burden lies really on her employer. Natalie didn't "steal" Mr. Glover- he was an adult that chose to have an affair with a child. Natalie was 16. Yes, that is still a child. An adult kissing, grooming, and otherwise sexually interacting with a child generally has a much nastier name than "love." Likewise, when an employer puts an employee in sexually compromising situations, or engages in an affair with their subordinate, we don't generally regard it as un-coerced, balanced "love." Kind of a double-wammy here.

It is unsurprising that a child from an abusive household would latch onto a positive male role model and see any happy feelings as love, and it is equally easy for those early feels of admiration and acceptance to grow into true love. I don't think Natalie needs to "justify" feeling loved and accepted for the first time, or reciprocating those feelings. I do think it was wrong of her to engage in an affair with Mr. Glover but she was not the one responsible for that. I do think that she had some responsibility for her actions, certainly carrying on a 30 year affair means she was making her choices as an adult as well as when she was a child. But this affair started when she was 1) a minor, 2) an employee and 3) in an extremely unbalanced, vulnerable state. It is hard to see a true, healthy, life-long attachment coming out of that.
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Post by Libs_Books »

EllieA wrote: 09 Apr 2018, 09:31 Any person can fall in love, but that doesn't make us magically not responsible for our actions. Although the burden lies really on her employer. Natalie didn't "steal" Mr. Glover- he was an adult that chose to have an affair with a child. Natalie was 16. Yes, that is still a child. An adult kissing, grooming, and otherwise sexually interacting with a child generally has a much nastier name than "love." Likewise, when an employer puts an employee in sexually compromising situations, or engages in an affair with their subordinate, we don't generally regard it as un-coerced, balanced "love."

It is unsurprising that a child from an abusive household would latch onto a positive male role model and see any happy feelings as love, and it is equally easy for those early feels of admiration and acceptance to grow into true love. I don't think Natalie needs to "justify" feeling loved and accepted for the first time, or reciprocating those feelings. I do think it was wrong of her to engage in an affair with Mr. Glover but she was not the one responsible for that. I do think that she had some responsibility for her actions, certainly carrying on a 30 year affair means she was making her choices as an adult as well as when she was a child. But this affair started when she was 1) a minor, 2) an employee and 3) in an extremely unbalanced, vulnerable state. It is hard to see a true, healthy, life-long attachment coming out of that.
I agree with pretty much all of that - I think the author made a mistake in putting all that in the Epilogue - I personally would have preferred a sequel in which Natalie comes to understand how she has been abused. Maybe the author thought that showing that Natalie really loved Mr Glover would somehow make what happened OK. My biggest complaint about the book is this lack of moral clarity - the actual events as depicted in the book - and even Natalie's feelings at the time - are all fine.
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Post by Bomisope »

Tbunde5 wrote: 04 Apr 2018, 22:27 Natalie had no positive role models to teach her what an appropriate relationship should be. She also has no knowledge of what real love should look like. In light of that, I don’t think we can blame her for her choices in this regard. In as much as her conscience tells her what she is doing may be wrong, she has been brought up in a dysfunctional home. We can hardly blame her for wanting what she sees as a loving relationship, no matter the cost.
We can't blame her for her choice with respect to a man since she had no role model to look up to. In as much as I don't blame her i still don't think what she did was right
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Post by jwalker73 »

I can understand why Natalie fell for him. Often girls who lack a true father figure in their lives gravitate towards older men, subconsciously trying to fill this void. He also did not treat her differently because of her skin colour. While I do not condone either party acting on their feelings, I can understand how this occurred. I am also mindful that Natalie did not initiate the first move.
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Post by slori0488 »

Tbunde5 wrote: 04 Apr 2018, 22:27 Natalie had no positive role models to teach her what an appropriate relationship should be. She also has no knowledge of what real love should look like. In light of that, I don’t think we can blame her for her choices in this regard. In as much as her conscience tells her what she is doing may be wrong, she has been brought up in a dysfunctional home. We can hardly blame her for wanting what she sees as a loving relationship, no matter the cost.
The fact that Natalie grew up in a dysfunctional home has little to do with being involved with a married man. Many, many kids come from dysfunctional homes and do not engage in such relationships.

I think the abuse she experienced was far more significant. She wanted someone to love her. To her, anyone that didn't abuse her was someone she could love and get love in return. It didn't matter what else was going on in this man's life. Natalie found someone that loved her back and that's all that mattered to her.
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Post by slori0488 »

Rameen Shahid wrote: 04 Apr 2018, 11:23 We all know what Natalie did was wrong or in another explanation, unethical, but is it really?
Is there any chance you think Natalie had no bad intentions of stealing Mrs. Grover's man in the first place and that she just couldn't help her feelings in the name of love?
I think at some point, she can justify her feelings because after all, not everyone has a control over their desires, love being the most irresistible one.
I need to say this before I say anything else: Natalie did not "steal" Mrs. Grocer's man. Mr. Grover knew exactly what he was doing. He made a conscious decision to get involved with Natalie. He wasn't taken against his will. He wasn't held at gunpoint and didn't have his life threatened. A man (or woman) cannot be "taken" from their marriage/relationship unless they are already unhappy and/or thinking of leaving.

With that being said, I do feel Natalie can justify her feelings. She simply wanted someone to love her. Anyone. She wasn't concerned about age or relationship status. She just wanted love. A person can't help who they fall in love with even if the situation isn't ideal.

Mr. Grover couldn't help his feelings for Natalie, but as an adult I feel he should have waited until she was truly mature enough in age and mentality to make such grown up decisions. He should have allowed Natalie time to heal from all that she'd been through and enjoy some experiences like college and just hanging out with friends. He also should have ended his marriage first. He should have been the adult and showed Natalie responsibility.
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Post by Kibet Hillary »

There is a difference between human beings and the inferior organisms in that we have self-control. Self control is what guides one into restraining from doing some things. The fact that the man was married means that this was a stop sign. There is no way I would support the action of having feelings for this married man.
“It just hurts too much to admit what is wanted so badly when there’s no guarantee of its availability.”
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Post by starshipsaga »

I think age is a huge factor in this. What Natalie did was unethical and wrong but I don't think (at least when she was 16) that she really understood the gravity of the situation and consequences of her actions. It's still a "ME!" world for a lot of teens at this age, and for Natalie her understanding of love is also not as developed. In a situation like this, I would place heavier scrutiny on Mr. Grover, who doesn't have the same excuse. He is the adult, with the responsibility to act like one. Echoing another poster in this thread who put it so succinctly, you might not be able to help your feelings, but you can help your actions. That's what being an adult is all about.
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Post by Sakilunamermaid »

Her feelings for him may have been a part of her wanting a father figure. She could have projected her needs and wishes on to him unintentionally. I am against cheating and extra martial affairs in every case. It is completely unethical and morally repugnant to hurt and impact so many people. I can understand motives for such behavior but there is no need to overlap and hurt someone's trust and heart. The cheater in a situation has the responsibility to not engage in the behavior, he is older and clearly should know better.
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Post by maggiechap »

I don't think we have to justify feelings in order to feel them. They are subjective and personal to each of us. that also doesn't make what Natalie did right in anyway. I agree with what someone said above, that it was weird at the end how everyone acted like it was just fine and that she remained with him. It happens, but very rarely. However, with that being said I've never used the 'I had a bad childhood' excuse to do something and I don't like it when others do. I don't feel like that was Natalie's case though. She was looking for peace and safety and Mr. Grover provided that. At least that's what I got from the story, he just happened to be a married man.
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Post by AlexisMersino »

I personally felt sorry for Rosemary Glover and was honestly shocked that Natalie didn't show more remorse or guilt for cheating with her husband? I know that she made a few comments, but it wasn't gone into in major detail. I guess I found it odd because of the close relationship between Natalie and Rosemary. If they didn't spend time together and were closer to being strangers to one another, I could understand it more. But since Rosemary took Natalie under her wing as her mentor and took all of this time to teach her art, Natalie's lack of regard for her really stood out to me. I loved Natalie but this characteristic of her was distasteful to me.

I think the main point of her having feelings for a married man had to do with the growth of her character: her sexual awakening and evolution from an insecure girl to realizing her beauty. Natalie also had no healthy example of a normal relationship. Her mom and Alex were toxic and Natalie didn't even get to experience a relationship between her grandma and grandpa. Though her grandpa was around and they were close, her grandma was no longer alive for Natalie to experience them together.
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Post by CheyenneR »

I don't think she could control her feelings but I think since Mr. Glover was older and in an authoritative role over her he could have controlled his feelings much better than a teenager could. Plus he was the married one. Even though I say that Natalie also knew he was married and was even friendly with his wife so I think they both share some heavy responsibility. I think in Natalie's case she could justify her feelings.
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Post by Libs_Books »

CheyenneR wrote: 11 Apr 2018, 18:36 I don't think she could control her feelings but I think since Mr. Glover was older and in an authoritative role over her he could have controlled his feelings much better than a teenager could. Plus he was the married one. Even though I say that Natalie also knew he was married and was even friendly with his wife so I think they both share some heavy responsibility. I think in Natalie's case she could justify her feelings.
I think you're dead right about Mr Glover. Natalie doesn't have to justify her feelings, though she is old enough to have to justify her actions, and she did owe Mrs Glover some loyalty. Nevertheless, Bruce Glover must take the greater share of the blame.
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Post by MrsCatInTheHat »

It's pretty difficult to control one's feelings about something, so no, she couldn't really change how she felt. Actions are a different story, as those need to be controlled; it is not okay to act on your feelings when the other person is married. Mr. Grover is as guilty as Natalie in this situation.
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Post by 6912dirtyfeet »

There is no way anyone can justify their feelings for another person married or not. One should always keep the loyalty they share, no matter what feelings srise. As for mr. grover he wasn't thinking of his wife one bit so that makes him just as responaibl as natilie.
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