When does personal responsibility become a part of the question?

Use this forum to discuss the March 2018 Book of the Month, "Final Notice" by Van Fleisher.
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Zain A Blade
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Re: When does personal responsibility become a part of the question?

Post by Zain A Blade » 25 Mar 2018, 08:17

In my view, everyone involved is responsible. We are all part of the universe and the collective subconscious, thus we all have a part to play in what manifests into our reality and environment. Sometimes the simple act of changing how we think can alter our inner moral compass and significantly impact our environment. It is as they say, change begins within, there is little value in looking for someone or something outside of us to blame.

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Post by n-dai che » 25 Mar 2018, 20:16

Tbunde5 wrote: ↑
25 Mar 2018, 06:41
Personal responsibility is always key. It is also something that can’t be regulated or legislated. Because we now live in a world that “shoots first”, there are changes that could be made that would make the scenarios in the book much less common.
"shoot first" idea captures my attention of your comments. It is rampant in our world today.

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Post by Tzara Drusak » 26 Mar 2018, 16:45

There's a lyric from the James Arthur song 'Suicide'. It goes,

"It ain't the gun
It's the man behind the trigger
Gets blood on his fingers
And runs
It ain't the lie
It's the way that the truth is denied"

This encapsulates perfectly the message that I think is being transmitted through Fleisher's work. Yes, the NRA took advantage of the elderly's vulnerability, and the invented tech does cause an astronomical amount of trouble, but isn't it the one who decides to carry out the act responsible at the end of the day?


There are a wide range of discussions that may arise as a consequence of this, all pertaining to strength of character, lifelong moral values and so on. But when someone decides to take a life, that's on them and no one else. No matter what you're going through, even if doesn't feel like it, someone's going through worse.
And in the end, we were all just humans... Drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness.

-F. Scott Fitzgerald-

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Post by n-dai che » 26 Mar 2018, 19:25

Tzara Drusak wrote: ↑
26 Mar 2018, 16:45
There's a lyric from the James Arthur song 'Suicide'. It goes,

"It ain't the gun
It's the man behind the trigger
Gets blood on his fingers
And runs
It ain't the lie
It's the way that the truth is denied"

This encapsulates perfectly the message that I think is being transmitted through Fleisher's work. Yes, the NRA took advantage of the elderly's vulnerability, and the invented tech does cause an astronomical amount of trouble, but isn't it the one who decides to carry out the act responsible at the end of the day?


There are a wide range of discussions that may arise as a consequence of this, all pertaining to strength of character, lifelong moral values and so on. But when someone decides to take a life, that's on them and no one else. No matter what you're going through, even if doesn't feel like it, someone's going through worse.
Ohh my,, how pitiful the senior citizens be! They took the advantage to make a high profit.

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Post by kfwilson6 » 27 Mar 2018, 08:57

Tzara Drusak wrote: ↑
26 Mar 2018, 16:45

This encapsulates perfectly the message that I think is being transmitted through Fleisher's work. Yes, the NRA took advantage of the elderly's vulnerability, and the invented tech does cause an astronomical amount of trouble, but isn't it the one who decides to carry out the act responsible at the end of the day?


There are a wide range of discussions that may arise as a consequence of this, all pertaining to strength of character, lifelong moral values and so on. But when someone decides to take a life, that's on them and no one else. No matter what you're going through, even if doesn't feel like it, someone's going through worse.
I absolutely agree with you. I'm sure that many of us could never reach a point where we would shoot someone (for many of us even in self-defense). There are a multitude of reasons I personally could not do that and I'm sure my feelings overlap greatly with those of others. What was never really delved into very deeply in the story was what led some of the shooters to take the action they did. Even feeling like you have been wronged and you want retribution, is the death of the person really even an appropriate "punishment" for the wrong they did? It seemed quite a bit extreme in most instances. I was so relieved for the brief inclusion of those who received a Final Notice and used it in all the right ways (make amends with family, donate to charity, ensure they are not driving when their time comes to pass).

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Post by n-dai che » 27 Mar 2018, 09:48

If only each person who received the final notiCe warning makes their last days memorable. They have the best story to tell.

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Post by britt13 » 27 Mar 2018, 16:14

Nena_Morena wrote: ↑
22 Mar 2018, 21:00
Often we get signs that something may happen, but we make up reasons to excuse ourselves from taking actions to prevent it. So I believe we could be partially responsible, but ultimately the blame is on the shooter since he is the one that makes the choice.
Exactly. There is a phenomenon known as the bystander effect. For those who have not heard of it, basically it is that you think someone else around will step in and do something so you do not, but if everyone is thinking that, no one steps in. I feel like that comes into play with shooters sometimes (though not necessarily in the book so much).

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Post by britt13 » 27 Mar 2018, 16:16

n-dai che wrote: ↑
23 Mar 2018, 22:06
Nena_Morena wrote: ↑
22 Mar 2018, 21:00
Often we get signs that something may happen, but we make up reasons to excuse ourselves from taking actions to prevent it. So I believe we could be partially responsible, but ultimately the blame is on the shooter since he is the one that makes the choice.
You're right ¡ the shooter plays an important role to the problem. Every thing can be solved by wise settlement. If every body knows what is ' peace. '
What do you mean by "If everybody knows what is 'peace'"? I think peace is a pretty universally understood concept, though it may not be implemented.

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Post by britt13 » 27 Mar 2018, 16:19

toribyers13 wrote: ↑
24 Mar 2018, 17:11
I agree, I felt there were many times in this book where personal responsibility was overlooked. Almost all the blame was placed on the NRA, the "Right-Side", and the media. While I do think they have a level of responsibility, I think at least a little more responsibility should have been placed on the individual in this story.
I very much agree with you. In both story and society, I think we like to place a lot of blame on the NRA. I do not like the NRA in ideals or the way that it works but that does not mean they are really where the blame should be. I think it is disgusting they line pockets to further their agenda and such but they are not pulling the trigger. That being said I wish they would react differently when shootings do happen, instead of blaming everything except access to guns.

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Post by britt13 » 27 Mar 2018, 16:24

Dr Zain A Blade wrote: ↑
25 Mar 2018, 08:17
In my view, everyone involved is responsible. We are all part of the universe and the collective subconscious, thus we all have a part to play in what manifests into our reality and environment. Sometimes the simple act of changing how we think can alter our inner moral compass and significantly impact our environment. It is as they say, change begins within, there is little value in looking for someone or something outside of us to blame.
That is an interesting way to think. I also think it is a bit flawed with regards to practical application. For instance, under that assumption, you would say if someone dies in a fire that was set on their house by a drunken group of teens the following people would be to blame:

-The parents of every one of those teens
-The person who supplied them the alcohol
-The person who sold them the matches
-Anyone who saw them walking down the street drunk with matches
-The uber driver that drove them
-The person next door who did not call 911 quick enough
-The others in the house for not saving that person
-The firemen for not getting them out

Etceteras. I know it seems silly when you lay it out like that but that is what I feel like that is saying. That would cause witch hunts. When really, yes all those people made it possible but ultimately it is the teens that lit the house on fire causing someone to die.

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Post by crediblereading2 » 27 Mar 2018, 22:47

It is the responsibility of everyone to think critically before taking any kind of action. Therefore, whoever takes the gun and intentionally shoots an innocent person, is obviously to be blamed. However, there are laws that can be enacted to provide proper safeguards when distributing guns to persons found worthy of having them.

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Post by n-dai che » 27 Mar 2018, 23:01

crediblereading2 wrote: ↑
27 Mar 2018, 22:47
It is the responsibility of everyone to think critically before taking any kind of action. Therefore, whoever takes the gun and intentionally shoots an innocent person, is obviously to be blamed. However, there are laws that can be enacted to provide proper safeguards when distributing guns to persons found worthy of having them.
You're right! The owner of the gun has a big responsibility. He is to be blamed! Nowadays, guns are rampant and it falls in the wrong hands many times.

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Post by Cheyenne Perkins » 28 Mar 2018, 14:09

DancingLady wrote: ↑
08 Mar 2018, 00:25
Ultimately the shooter is to blame as they didn’t have to make that choice. However, anyone who is aware that there is a serious risk of tragedy that could be prevented is responsible for how they deal with that knowledge. Unfortunately people often blame themselves for things they couldn’t realistically foresee, while others ignore warnings signs they have the capacity to address. I think it’s just a matter or educating yourself and making a point to not ignore something if you can take action.
I completely agree with you. We are not responsible for others actions, but we are culpable for what we say and do.

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Post by kfwilson6 » 28 Mar 2018, 14:44

britt13 wrote: ↑
27 Mar 2018, 16:24
Dr Zain A Blade wrote: ↑
25 Mar 2018, 08:17
In my view, everyone involved is responsible. We are all part of the universe and the collective subconscious, thus we all have a part to play in what manifests into our reality and environment. Sometimes the simple act of changing how we think can alter our inner moral compass and significantly impact our environment. It is as they say, change begins within, there is little value in looking for someone or something outside of us to blame.
That is an interesting way to think. I also think it is a bit flawed with regards to practical application. For instance, under that assumption, you would say if someone dies in a fire that was set on their house by a drunken group of teens the following people would be to blame:

-The parents of every one of those teens
-The person who supplied them the alcohol
-The person who sold them the matches
-Anyone who saw them walking down the street drunk with matches
-The uber driver that drove them
-The person next door who did not call 911 quick enough
-The others in the house for not saving that person
-The firemen for not getting them out

Etceteras. I know it seems silly when you lay it out like that but that is what I feel like that is saying. That would cause witch hunts. When really, yes all those people made it possible but ultimately it is the teens that lit the house on fire causing someone to die.
That is a great example. There is always more that a "bystander" could have done to change circumstances but the main player in the scenario has the most control over how things turned out. It isn't always easy to lay the blame where it truly belongs. Pointing fingers can be quite easy. I minored in psychology in college because I really loved it and I remember learning about the problem with bystanders. If you yell "someone call 911," most people will expect someone else to do it. But if you point at someone and say "you call 911," no matter who it is, they are much more likely to do it. Maybe if Zoe had told Dr. Patel "you caused this" he may have felt a larger sense of responsibility for the well-being of his users.

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Post by britt13 » 30 Mar 2018, 16:30

kfwilson6 wrote: ↑
28 Mar 2018, 14:44
britt13 wrote: ↑
27 Mar 2018, 16:24
Dr Zain A Blade wrote: ↑
25 Mar 2018, 08:17
In my view, everyone involved is responsible. We are all part of the universe and the collective subconscious, thus we all have a part to play in what manifests into our reality and environment. Sometimes the simple act of changing how we think can alter our inner moral compass and significantly impact our environment. It is as they say, change begins within, there is little value in looking for someone or something outside of us to blame.
That is an interesting way to think. I also think it is a bit flawed with regards to practical application. For instance, under that assumption, you would say if someone dies in a fire that was set on their house by a drunken group of teens the following people would be to blame:

-The parents of every one of those teens
-The person who supplied them the alcohol
-The person who sold them the matches
-Anyone who saw them walking down the street drunk with matches
-The uber driver that drove them
-The person next door who did not call 911 quick enough
-The others in the house for not saving that person
-The firemen for not getting them out

Etceteras. I know it seems silly when you lay it out like that but that is what I feel like that is saying. That would cause witch hunts. When really, yes all those people made it possible but ultimately it is the teens that lit the house on fire causing someone to die.
That is a great example. There is always more that a "bystander" could have done to change circumstances but the main player in the scenario has the most control over how things turned out. It isn't always easy to lay the blame where it truly belongs. Pointing fingers can be quite easy. I minored in psychology in college because I really loved it and I remember learning about the problem with bystanders. If you yell "someone call 911," most people will expect someone else to do it. But if you point at someone and say "you call 911," no matter who it is, they are much more likely to do it. Maybe if Zoe had told Dr. Patel "you caused this" he may have felt a larger sense of responsibility for the well-being of his users.
Exactly. I did not minor in psych but I took 4 or 5 courses in it. The bystander effect was one that shocked me at first but then actually made a lot of sense when I thought about it. I even notice it in something as simple as friends talking about ordering pizza and they all just sit there waiting for someone else to order. We all have a duty to look out for one another the best we can (in my opinion), but that does not mean we have to feel the guilt of what someone else chose to do.

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