The Elderly and Retired; Thoughts from Final Notice

Use this forum to discuss the March 2018 Book of the Month, "Final Notice" by Van Fleisher.
londonmartine
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Re: The Elderly and Retired; Thoughts from Final Notice

Post by londonmartine » 21 Mar 2018, 04:18

Where are you based? I'm in the UK, and my heart absolutely breaks for the elderly and the way our culture has evolved to treat them. As far as I can see, it's a byproduct of a world which has changed to involve a lot more moving around and, as a result, families moving away from each other. You then no longer have the support system from the different generations, and you have less of a connection with your parents when you live far away. Then, at the end of life, it's not practical to look after them, and it's easier to emotionally distance yourself from them, right when they are most vulnerable. I genuinely dread getting to an age when I am weak and vulnerable because I know that it will be lonely. I can completely understand Fleisher's depiction of a character who rebels against the status quo.

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Post by ReyvrexQuestor Reyes » 21 Mar 2018, 07:28

I think it is grossly wrong to believe that people who bullied the elderly did so just because the elderly have no means to retaliate blow-by-blow instantly. We know, or at least from Psychology, there were findings that people with a deranged mind just get this urge to bully the old or the young indiscriminately when they could get away with it. And there are various stimuli for people who go on a rampage shooting to do so, at whatever age they may be. It is the state of their mind that determines their action. Just recently the age level of shooting spree killers lowered considerably. What it means is that age is not a determinant factor at all.
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Post by azerikaj » 21 Mar 2018, 19:37

I do kind of think that experience doesn't get the credit it might have during earlier eras.

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Post by LoisCHenderson » 21 Mar 2018, 23:04

An author of a series of books that I have been reviewing, and who promised to promote my editing and indexing services in return, sent out a notice of one of her new projects claiming that she knew this "old jazzy pensioner" whose editing skills she then went on to extol. I'm truly miffed and have told her so - how is anyone going to be drawn to employ me when she starts out in that way (beside which, I haven't yet reached pensionable age according to the UK system, though I am no spring chicken, either)? The whole incident has shown me how empathetic she really is, so I certainly will be spending much less time on her work than I would otherwise have done - call it "the nerd's revenge", if you will!

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Post by Lincolnshirelass » 22 Mar 2018, 04:50

I can understand that's annoying. I also have to say, re 'jazzy pensioner' it sometimes irritates me that, especially in children's books there ARE old, but they're only deemed acceptable or praiseworthy if they're pseudo-young. Don't get me wrong - I've nothing at all against biking grannies and break-dancing grandpas, but think it should also be pointed out that the old are not only commendable when they ape the young. After all, a younger person who is into 'older' (terrible stereotyping, I know) activities is often presented, both in life and fiction, as a figure of fun or pity.
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Post by n-dai che » 22 Mar 2018, 05:00

"Why do you think things are like this? And do you think that the elderly like Vince are threatened or feel threatened- like children and women are- for being percieved as weaker?"

The elderly were threatened and more vulnerable to this event because of the idea that they are "weak". They thought guns will make them feel secure.

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Post by kfwilson6 » 26 Mar 2018, 10:09

lavellan wrote:
09 Mar 2018, 14:54
I think that in the U.S. we treat becoming old as the worst thing that can happen to you. Commercials and general media all emphasize the desirability of youth. This adds to the depression and sadness of the elderly, leading them to feel marginalized.
What a great point. Every time you turn on the TV you get hit with ads of either young women scantily clad or commercials for hair growth, anti-age cream, or something about "feeling and acting young again". This is a horrible message to send. And it's constantly everywhere we look. Even if every person an elderly individual actually encountered was kind to him, the impersonal messages conveyed through society are so harsh. It's great that technology can help us overcome some of the pitfalls to aging, but it's no fun having the constant reminders of how unpleasant growing old is or will be.

We do all dread getting older. We think about all of the negative aspects of it and even talk about how we will finally get to retire when we hit a certain age but we won't be able to enjoy it as we would in our 20s and 30s.

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Post by KitabuKitamu » 27 Mar 2018, 09:09

Haute_Coffee wrote:
05 Mar 2018, 09:00
The idea of the senior citizens being targeted by the NRA is the point of the book that had me thinking the most. The NRA is in the business of selling guns and they specifically manipulated a group in society that is made to feel powerless. They are made to feel redundant, they are being pushed around (literally, as Vince talks about early in the novel). The NRA targets the feeling that they have lost control and offers them gun ownership as a way of getting their power back. They give seniors who might feel confused or intimidated in public a way of feeling strong and protecting themselves.

I think right now, especially there is such a huge gap between senior citizens and young people due to technology. It is easy for an older person to feel the world doesn't belong to them anymore.
This got me thinking, you visit your granny and he/she can't remember you (alzheimer's), but remembers where the gun is...

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Post by n-dai che » 27 Mar 2018, 09:59

KitabuKitamu wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 09:09
Haute_Coffee wrote:
05 Mar 2018, 09:00
The idea of the senior citizens being targeted by the NRA is the point of the book that had me thinking the most. The NRA is in the business of selling guns and they specifically manipulated a group in society that is made to feel powerless. They are made to feel redundant, they are being pushed around (literally, as Vince talks about early in the novel). The NRA targets the feeling that they have lost control and offers them gun ownership as a way of getting their power back. They give seniors who might feel confused or intimidated in public a way of feeling strong and protecting themselves.

I think right now, especially there is such a huge gap between senior citizens and young people due to technology. It is easy for an older person to feel the world doesn't belong to them anymore.
This got me thinking, you visit your granny and he/she can't remember you (alzheimer's), but remembers where the gun is...
I agree with you. My grandpa also had Alzheimer and still remember whre he puts his gun. My grandma put the gun in other place because sometimes grandpa wanted to do firing drill. He is not allowed.

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Post by Haute_Coffee » 27 Mar 2018, 11:53

n-dai che wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 09:59
KitabuKitamu wrote:
27 Mar 2018, 09:09
Haute_Coffee wrote:
05 Mar 2018, 09:00
The idea of the senior citizens being targeted by the NRA is the point of the book that had me thinking the most. The NRA is in the business of selling guns and they specifically manipulated a group in society that is made to feel powerless. They are made to feel redundant, they are being pushed around (literally, as Vince talks about early in the novel). The NRA targets the feeling that they have lost control and offers them gun ownership as a way of getting their power back. They give seniors who might feel confused or intimidated in public a way of feeling strong and protecting themselves.

I think right now, especially there is such a huge gap between senior citizens and young people due to technology. It is easy for an older person to feel the world doesn't belong to them anymore.
This got me thinking, you visit your granny and he/she can't remember you (alzheimer's), but remembers where the gun is...
I agree with you. My grandpa also had Alzheimer and still remember whre he puts his gun. My grandma put the gun in other place because sometimes grandpa wanted to do firing drill. He is not allowed.
Exactly. Now I definitely know lots of seniors who wouldn’t be a danger with a gun, but I also know quite a few who have lost reaction time/vision to the point where they can’t drive. If you physically cannot have a drivers license, I don’t think you should have a gun license.

This is not meant to disparage seniors. I just viewed the NRA as manipulating members of a group that feel powerless in American society.

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Post by n-dai che » 27 Mar 2018, 16:32

Yeah.. I can't imagine why elderly people often times remember their guns. Are they always thinking of an enemy ?

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Post by n-dai che » 27 Mar 2018, 16:35

My grandpa always think, "enemies are coming, where is my gun? " his face looks real of the real enemy that seems approaching, yet it was just thoughts that there are enemies.

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Post by n-dai che » 27 Mar 2018, 16:40

londonmartine wrote:
21 Mar 2018, 04:18
Where are you based? I'm in the UK, and my heart absolutely breaks for the elderly and the way our culture has evolved to treat them. As far as I can see, it's a byproduct of a world which has changed to involve a lot more moving around and, as a result, families moving away from each other. You then no longer have the support system from the different generations, and you have less of a connection with your parents when you live far away. Then, at the end of life, it's not practical to look after them, and it's easier to emotionally distance yourself from them, right when they are most vulnerable. I genuinely dread getting to an age when I am weak and vulnerable because I know that it will be lonely. I can completely understand Fleisher's depiction of a character who rebels against the status quo.
Different countries have different cultures, yet it is alarming that in other who loves the elderly and their families managed to take care of them, but now, home for the aged is increasing.

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Post by britt13 » 28 Mar 2018, 15:15

DancingLady wrote:
02 Mar 2018, 10:41
I think the number one reason is because society has pushed God out, therefore “honor your father and mother” has ceased to be a command. Without God as the ultimate authority, the individual becomes his own authority and that leads immediately to an extremely self centered world view where people only see others for what they can get from them. When a person is old and can not contribute the kind of things they used to, the self centered person no longer has much interest in the old. So much wisdom and insight is lost by neglecting the elderly, but when the (adult) children are focused only on themselves, wisdom is not even on the radar. I’m seeing this novel in part as a commentary on secularism and a projection of one of its impending consequences. As a Christian I see Jesus as the only solution because no matter what we do through legislation, only Jesus can change the heart of man, and without a change of heart, no meaningful change is going to happen.
This is an interesting view. I personally do not agree totally with you but I see what you are getting at. I think many people can be morally upright without being a Christian, and on the flip side, many Christians can be morally confused. I do not know that a lack of God being as prominent in our society is causing a shift in the treatment of the elderly, though I suppose it could be a contributing factor.

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Post by britt13 » 28 Mar 2018, 15:19

kandscreeley wrote:
04 Mar 2018, 14:49
I think it's because bullies always target those who are weaker than them. The elderly are an easy target. That doesn't make it right....
Exactly. Children usually have protectors, but that is less true for the elderly (in my opinion based on what I have observed).

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