Colleen McCullough

[primrose777]

Hi Gannon, I am up to chapter 51 in O&L , Oscar is firmly wedged in the middle of the ship and I have a feeling that he is about to learn how to play cards. He is certainly of the radar isnt he.
Once I got past Devon I was into the whole thing.

[Gannon]

[quote="primrose777"]Hi Gannon, I am up to chapter 51 in O&L , Oscar is firmly wedged in the middle of the ship and I have a feeling that he is about to learn how to play cards. He is certainly of the radar isnt he.
Once I got past Devon I was into the whole thing.[/q

Howdy primrose. I love both of the protagonists. They are both very "real" characters. Both of them have their flaws and problems. They also both have addictive personalities. Can't wait until you get to the end. I really want to know what you think.

-- Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:31 am --

@ Fran

I know this is not on topic but you, Maud and I seem to use this post for everything. What I want to ask is
what is your view on the ending of "The Sense of an Ending"?
I believe that the child is Sarah's and Adrian's. I think that Adrian committed suicide because of the child. However some people believe that the child is Tony's and Veronica's and that is why she keeps saying to him that he does not understand. Do you know why Veronica replies to Tony's email with "Blood Money"? I think that this is just about the only part that I still don't understand. Great book. I love books which leave you thinking about them for days and days after you have finished it.

@Maud

Hey Maud have you read it? If not, you should. It is so short you would finish it in a couple of hours. I would love to hear your take on it as well.

[primrose777]

Hi Gannon,
I am about 3/4 of the way through O&L, it is such a different book to what I am used to reading. The characters are so raw. Sorry I am so slow, but it takes me a while to absorb what I am reading. At the risk of sounding illiterate , Peter Carey uses such BIG WORDS, some I have never heard of. I wish I had started off reading with my dictionary in hand. I am sure I could use some of them in everyday life. Will have to retrace my steps once I am finished.
I managed to pick up a copy of the First Man in Rome, I hope this is the first in the series. I was guessing. Couldn't find Morgans run. Looking forward to reading it and will let you know if I love it.

[Gannon]

Hi Gannon,
I am about 3/4 of the way through O&L, it is such a different book to what I am used to reading. The characters are so raw. Sorry I am so slow, but it takes me a while to absorb what I am reading. At the risk of sounding illiterate , Peter Carey uses such BIG WORDS, some I have never heard of. I wish I had started off reading with my dictionary in hand. I am sure I could use some of them in everyday life. Will have to retrace my steps once I am finished.
I managed to pick up a copy of the First Man in Rome, I hope this is the first in the series. I was guessing. Couldn't find Morgans run. Looking forward to reading it and will let you know if I love it.

Howdy primrose. I do the same thing with the dictionary and I used it while reading O&L. I am so glad that you picked up a copy of "First Man in Rome". I really hope you enjoy it. It deals with Marius and Sulla(one of my favourites). Sulla was Rome's first dictator, not Caesar and Colleen breaths life into his character effortlessly. She really makes him dance off the pages. Same goes for Marius, who is the other protagonist of the first book.

I think that you will either love it or hate it. It will either suck you in, as it did me, or if you don't fall in love with Ancient Rome, it will probably seem boring and overwhelming(there are so many characters, history and stories within the series).

I really hope that you will love it. Please let me know what you think and let me know what you think of the ending of O&L.

[Fran]

@Gannon
Lest you would think I'm ignoring you (I never would) ... it's just that I've had to re-read The Sense of an Ending to refresh my memory .... I think it was last August I read it & the old memory isn't what it was!
I remember really enjoying it but it certainly provides food for thought .... I'll be back to you later tonight with my two pence worth

[Gannon]

@Gannon
Lest you would think I'm ignoring you (I never would) ... it's just that I've had to re-read The Sense of an Ending to refresh my memory .... I think it was last August I read it & the old memory isn't what it was!
I remember really enjoying it but it certainly provides food for thought .... I'll be back to you later tonight with my two pence worth

No probs Fran. I just want to get your view on the ending. It's great that it is such a short book that you can really sit down and read it in one sitting. The ending is so ambiguous. I saw your post to Carla about letting you know what she thought of it. When I got it off the shelf and flipped through it, I wanted to read it again. I am so glad I did, imho it's a brilliant book. Please let me know what you think, when you have finished it. I am dying to know what your take on the ending is.

[Fran]

@Gannon
To say the ending is ambiguous is surely an understatement ...... I really do think it's one of those books that each time you read it you find it's like reading a different book & interpretations that never even occurred to you on first reading start to appear blindingly obvious & what you thought you understood suddenly becomes obscure.

To start with, on first reading I felt the Blood Money? reference was Veronica’s way of implying that Anthony was to a degree responsible for Adrian's suicide but second time round, & given the question mark, I’m wondering was it her way of encouraging him to delve deeper. If she had just said ‘well, my mother felt you were badly treated by the family and wanted to make a gesture of reconciliation’ would he still have followed up the diary?

I have to admit it never entered my head that the child could be Sarah’s and Anthony’s .... I can’t see that but I’d love to hear what makes you think it.

Initially I thought it was obvious the child was Veronica’s brother and that it was Anthony’s poisonous letter that led to a rift between Adrian and Veronica & ultimately the suicide. There was the incident with the eggs for breakfast and the broken egg yoke ... was that a suggestion that Sarah was at that time pregnant with a damaged egg resulting in the damaged child? But second time round I’m inclined to think Anthony & Veronica were the parents and that Adrian finding out, & feeling that he was lied to by both of them, was the cause of his suicide. Now I’m not so sure, Anthony does say that the child resembles Adrian ... but then we see what we expect to see & he was pre-disposed to think of Adrian as the father. Or it could be that Adrian & Veronica were the parents but that Anthony’s poisonous letter caused the rift between them & led to the suicide.

But I still have no explanation for the child referring to Veronica as Mary .... is it just that he calls all women Mary or is there something else I’m missing?
No wonder Anthony does not understand ..... think I may have to read it again

[Gannon]

@Gannon
To say the ending is ambiguous is surely an understatement ...... I really do think it's one of those books that each time you read it you find it's like reading a different book & interpretations that never even occurred to you on first reading start to appear blindingly obvious & what you thought you understood suddenly becomes obscure.

To start with, on first reading I felt the Blood Money? reference was Veronica’s way of implying that Anthony was to a degree responsible for Adrian's suicide but second time round, & given the question mark, I’m wondering was it her way of encouraging him to delve deeper. If she had just said ‘well, my mother felt you were badly treated by the family and wanted to make a gesture of reconciliation’ would he still have followed up the diary?

I have to admit it never entered my head that the child could be Sarah’s and Anthony’s .... I can’t see that but I’d love to hear what makes you think it.

Initially I thought it was obvious the child was Veronica’s brother and that it was Anthony’s poisonous letter that led to a rift between Adrian and Veronica & ultimately the suicide. There was the incident with the eggs for breakfast and the broken egg yoke ... was that a suggestion that Sarah was at that time pregnant with a damaged egg resulting in the damaged child? But second time round I’m inclined to think Anthony & Veronica were the parents and that Adrian finding out, & feeling that he was lied to by both of them, was the cause of his suicide. Now I’m not so sure, Anthony does say that the child resembles Adrian ... but then we see what we expect to see & he was pre-disposed to think of Adrian as the father. Or it could be that Adrian & Veronica were the parents but that Anthony’s poisonous letter caused the rift between them & led to the suicide.

But I still have no explanation for the child referring to Veronica as Mary .... is it just that he calls all women Mary or is there something else I’m missing?
No wonder Anthony does not understand ..... think I may have to read it again

Howdy Howdy Fran.

It really is a great little book isn't it. Could not agree with you more about the ending. Reading it the second time was so much better than the first. I didn't consider entertaining the notion that the child was Sarah's and Tony's either, however there are some people on the discussion sites who believe this. Imho I think that Sarah was stealing Veronica's boyfriends and slept with Tony and Adrian. This being the case I think Adrian's suicide makes it likely that he is the father and when he finds out about having a child with his girlfriends mother it is all too much for him. Maybe Veronica feels that her mother is sorry and believes she is the cause of all the problems hence the "Blood Money" letter.

For a little while I believed that Tony was the father and this is why Veronica is constantly telling him that he just doesn't get it. He doesn't get it because he doesn't even consider the possibility that the child is his. Veronica gets more and more frustrated with him for not seeing the truth before his eyes. Imho this ending shines a light on the "Blood Money" letter giving it more power and relevance. Your idea on the blood money letter being Veronica's way to get Tony to "delve deeper" is a good one too. I think that she wrote it in anger. She was so angry that Tony had found access to her email and was now going to drag the horrible past back into her life. It was an angry knee-jerk reaction that she fired off in an angry impulse.

Sometimes I feel that the whole book revolves around Tony's venemous letter. Barnes uses it to show us the weakness of human memory and recall, and how we all see history and the past differently. Tony had forgotten about the letter and was shocked to find how cruel and vitriolic it was after reading it and yet he had written it. His memory had "deleted" the memory where I bet that Veronica could almost recall it word for word. Once again we are shown how different and weak our memories can be. The title of the book is so apt. "The Sense of an Ending". Whose sense? Whose ending? Each character has a different "sense" of the ending. It's brilliant. Is there really a true ending, or do we all see our own endings. We as the readers are also all seeing different endings. I am sure that this is what Barnes intended and I think that is why the book won the booker.

The "Mary" thing is doing my head in. Why Fran? Why? Why does the brother refer to Veronica as Mary? Maybe if Maud reads it, or has read it, we can brainstorm and find its meaning between us.
I am going to read a few other books and then return to "Sense" in the future.

Ps - I missed the broken eggs bit. Nice pick up Fran. Given the context of the book, I would say that you are definitely right about the broken egg comparison.

[Fran]

@Gannon
The 'Mary' has me bemused too ... I do know an acquaintance of mine has an autistic child who calls all adult males John, that's the only explanation I can come up with but it seems a little too glib for Barnes.
I can see the argument for the Sarah/Adrian/Tony triangle but it doesn't seem the evidence. Did you happen to see on some site where someone has worked out Adrian's math theorem?

I'd love to tie Barnes to a chair & force him to tell us the truth .... but then maybe he doesn't know either

We will have to depend on Maud to supply the definite opinion ... I do hope she reads it.

[Gannon]

@Gannon
The 'Mary' has me bemused too ... I do know an acquaintance of mine has an autistic child who calls all adult males John, that's the only explanation I can come up with but it seems a little too glib for Barnes.
I can see the argument for the Sarah/Adrian/Tony triangle but it doesn't seem the evidence. Did you happen to see on some site where someone has worked out Adrian's math theorem?

I'd love to tie Barnes to a chair & force him to tell us the truth .... but then maybe he doesn't know either

We will have to depend on Maud to supply the definite opinion ... I do hope she reads it.

Howdy there Fran, top of the weekend to ya! I will have to have a look at the site where someone has worked out the math to Adrian's theorem, sounds most interesting. It's funny how you said that maybe Barnes does not know the truth about his ending, I have thought that myself. If Maud has not read it we must start a campaign of continual bombardment until she gives in and reads it. You could be right about "Mary". Maybe it might just be a "red herring" to through the reader off for a little bit longer.
Anyway hope you have a fantastic weekend.

[Fran]

@Gannon
I found the link again ratracerefuge.com/bookreviews/barnes-th ... tions.html .... see what you think, Math wouldn't be my strong suit I hasten to add

I'm still mulling over this story & I'm coming round to the Adrain/Sarah affair scenario .... could it be that Tony's poisonous letter inadvertently led Veronica to find out about Adrain & Sarah's affair & the child thus leading to the suicide & Sarah's bequest & Veronica's "Blood Money?" reference. Everyone thinking that Tony knew something he didn't actually know at all because he is so wrapped up in his own hurt ego & had only hit on by pure chance in the letter .... unintended consequences as it were? Thus he really did not understand anything (or me either for that matter!)
Sorry, I know I'm getting totally wrapped up in the story ... I'm a repeat offender!

@Maud
Come on read the book please, please ...... we need your input

[DATo]

Per Fran's suggestion I picked up The Sense Of An Ending this morning and read it today in one sitting. Excellent book to dissect - loads of deep stuff in this one.

I found traces of Sartre, Camus, Bergson, Proust and even Hesse (Demian) well represented and sprinkled liberally throughout the novel. Proust and Bergson for Tony's constant allusions to 'time'; in Proust's case, how the past can be vividly recalled through sleight, and relatively insignificant things which trigger memories; Sartre, of course, with respect to the theme of existential responsibility; and Camus, for probably his most famous quote (which Barnes had abbreviated), from Le Mythe De Sisyphe - (the full quote) "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question of philosophy. All other questions follow from that."

When considering Adrian's mathematical equation in which the various characters are represented by individual letters I think we must hark back to what Tony says regarding the multiplication of loss. The cryptic ending of Adrian's diary entry concluding with "So for instance, if Tony ...", I believe is meant to signify that if one letter of the chain was missing (if the event of Tony introducing Veronica to Adrian) had not occurred, the "loss" would not have occurred, thus intimating Tony's responsibility regarding subsequent events. We must bear in mind that Adrian never intended for Tony to ever see this diary entry at the time he wrote it.

Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but I found the name "Veronica" interesting too. In The New Testament Veronica was the woman who wiped the face of Jesus as he was being led to the cross resulting in an image of Jesus' face being deposited on the cloth described in his blood. In this case Veronica appears as an avenging angel. The white cloth is replaced by the white page (letter, not an email) copy of Tony's scathingly brutal letter to Adrian many years before in which he both cursed and prophesied Adrian's future. In this case the letter, perhaps representing Veronica's cloth, serves not to comfort but to inflict pain upon Tony, which it does, by showing him his true face described in the words of his letter.

For Gannon : Possibly another Biblical allusion - "Mary" (*HINT* and her son, who suffers for the redemption of sinners. One can say that Tony has found redemption through his new-found knowledge of Adrian Jr.). Obviously Veronica is not Adrian Jr.'s mother, but the name "Mary" is highly suggestive. I've been racking my brains wondering why else Barnes would use it?

Having trouble with "Blood Money". Need to think that one over. Fran has spawned some interesting theories.

Haven't had enough time to digest all of the subtleties of the book yet. This is the part where I go back and start taking it apart and looking at all the pieces. *L*

[Gannon]

Hey there Dato, thanks for dropping in on our little discussion.

[DATo]

Hey there Dato, thanks for dropping in on our little discussion. :D

Hey there Gannon !!!!! Just edited the post to fix a spelling mistake. Hope it makes sense. I need to get deeper into this book as there is a lot going on in it. I am currently befuddled by "blood money" but Fran might be on the right track.

[Gannon]

Hey there Dato, thanks for dropping in on our little discussion.

Hey there Gannon !!!!! Just edited the post to fix a spelling mistake. Hope it makes sense. I need to get deeper into this book as there is a lot going on in it. I am currently befuddled by "blood money" but Fran might be on the right track.

There certainly is a lot going on in this brilliant little book. Your explanation for the "Mary" discussion may just be on the money, very interesting.

@Fran

Thanks for the link, Fran, I will take a look.