A Clockwork Orange - Chapters 1-3 Discussion
- LoveHatesYou
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A Clockwork Orange - Chapters 1-3 Discussion
For now don't worry about where you are. I just wanmted everyone to know what we were reading and when we were meeting. I'm going to say the first three chapters is a good place to start, and we'll move on to the next 3 on Fri. Let me know if the pace work out, if not, I am happy to slow it down, or speed it up. I know some of you have read this before, as have I - and some of you want to read ahead. Read ahead if you like, but remember not to discuss too much in advance in here, as not everyone will have read that far, and we wouldn't want to ruin everyone's good time.
This forum is totally open. I will guide you with a couple of leading questions, and some themes I want you to watch, but feel free to bring to attention whatever you feel is of imporantance, or noteworthy.
A few rules:
NUMBER ONE MOST IMPORTANT!
Please be respectful and mature- internet fighting is the lamest form of self-indulgence.
Other than that:
If you quote something and know the page, it might be helpful to say so, so we can all reference it.
If you have new ideas, please share them.
This is my first time moderating here, so be gentle.
We meet Mondays and Fridays, anytime, but I'll usually do mornings, so if you want to catch me- that's the best time. Feel free to message me. I'll get back to you. 3 chapters by Friday, and then another 3 by Monday. If anyone thinks that pace is too grueling, please let me know, we'll slow it down.
I have no computer access (usually) during the weekends, so if I don't get back to you then, please don't be offended.
Alright, thus being said and out of the way-
The principal and most divisive idea in ?A Clockwork Orange? is uttered repeatedly by F. Alexander and the prison chaplain: without choice and free will, man is no longer human but a "clockwork orange," a deterministic machine. Free will, Burgess and his liberal agents argue, is necessary to maintain our humanity, both individually andas a society; uprisings are built on free will, as Alex points out. Apparent even within the first few chapters, the reader can see the problems with this ?free will?. The importance of free will for the individual is the ?major theme? of ?A Clockwork Orange?, but Burgess immediately treats the reader to an array of events that suggest why free will is dangerous- aka the overwhelming plethora of violent scenes that assault the reader with each turning of the page. Unhindered by police or any kind of social or law enforcement, Alex and his ?droogs? are free to do what they desire - which seems to be ill-will toward their fellow man. Some questions for you readers to ponder- now of later in your reading.
Why dies free will, which is so vital for humanity and society, bring so much violence?
What is Burgess saying about free will? About violence? About today?s youth? Is he saying anything?
Chapter 3 touches briefly on art, with the music and the manuscript- what is the message?
Are we picking up any metaphors or symbols yet? Any themes I haven?t mentioned?
Okay- I have talked enough- please add your comments, ideas, and anything you have to add. Feel free to discuss all week- Fri. I will post new topics, and we will move on to new the next chapters. I apologize for slipping into teacher mode- it?s just how I do- Love it!
- knightss
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i found the first page a little confusing because of the "nadsat". it becomes much easier after a few pages but if you're wondering what some words mean go here http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Concordan ... ork_Orange
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- Scott
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I wouldn't blame the violence on freewill. I blame it on instincts and instinctive emotions such as anger, fear, et cetera. I see instincts as more mechanical aspects of our motivations, in that they come from a primitive state of mind like that of lower animals who don't think freely and make freewill choices as much as humans. In contrast, free-will leads to more civilized behaviors such as the seemingly unnatural pacifism of Martin Luther King.LoveHatesYou wrote:Why [does] free will, which is so vital for humanity and society, bring so much violence?
What's everyone else think?
"Non ignara mali miseris succurrere disco." Virgil, The Aeneid
- LoveHatesYou
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- Scott
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However, in society we need to protect innocent people from being victimized by others who would choose to use violence to hurt the innocent people.
So, I don't want people forced to be helpful, but I do want people forcibly stopped from being harmful.
What do you think?
"Non ignara mali miseris succurrere disco." Virgil, The Aeneid
- knightss
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- knightss
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It seems to me that Burgess is showing that if the youth is left alone to do as they please they can become destructive. in chapter 3 they mention that his parents take sleeping pills so they can sleep while alex listens to his music. alex seems to get whatever he wants and is not disciplined. it shows a lack of responsibility by the parents. alex considers murder and voilence as a fun act... i can not pinpoint the reason for this. maybe it's the issue of free will... if we are all left alone to do as we please would we all act like alex and his droogs? i hope not lol.
- jsavage
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also - just wanted to add that i read this book about a year ago, but i plan on re-reading it again to better participate here. which chapter is everyone up to now? yay, a book club!
- knightss
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also in the case of his "droogs" i believe they are feeling pressure to be part of the "group" and doing things they maybe normally wouldn't do if they were by themselves. i recently wrote an 8 page paper on gang rape where in most cases the men commiting the act were doing it be part of the group... sort of a rite of passage. in groups such as these there is a loss of self identity and if they don't have the power to think for themselves and stand up against what they know is wrong then they are likely to follow mindlessly.
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For example, this quote from the book: “But what I do I do because I like to do.” Some may just enjoy to be evil, some may enjoy to be good, something may have caused it, something may have not, but; to summarize what I have said so far; everyone is different, everyone thinks and feels different, has different points of view, etc., hence some people will choose to do/make "bad" choices with free will or they may choose to make "good" choices with their free will.
I say "bad" and "good" because as I said earlier, there are many different people out there with different points of view. Sometimes it can be very simple to tell good from bad, but sometimes there is that fuzzy area in between where you're not quite sure. Our world is complicated, with so many unique individuals, I think we can never really have a straight answer to why some people act the way they do. “Is it better for a man to have chosen evil than to have good imposed upon him?” I think this quote from the book describes that fuzzy line between good and evil, as those doctors/scientists are 'fixing' Alex's desire/nature to be violent, but they are also depriving him of his choices in life as well as -basically- torturing him.
“Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses to be bad perhaps in some way better than a man who has the good imposed upon him?” Everyone has a choice, and some may choose to do "evil" because they feel to do so, whether they think it's just, good, bad, or they just flat out think it's entertaining. In conclusion; with many different people who all perceive the world differently from one another, there are going to be many different choices that are made, some may be evil, some may be good, and in my opinion, that is where/why violence may come along with free will.