A Clockwork Orange - Chapters 13-17 Discussion

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LoveHatesYou
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A Clockwork Orange - Chapters 13-17 Discussion

Post by LoveHatesYou »

At the beginning of Part III, we get the old refrain?"What's it going to be then, eh?"?and this time, out of prison, Alex asks the question for himself- this time reflecting inward rather than mocking or threatening his next victim. We see, in slight glimpses, that there has been a few changes in the government. It seems things have become much more repressive since Alex was last out in the world. The new upswing of repression seems to have come in under the banner of law and order?in the workers' cafe, Alex reads some boastful articles about how the Government has cleaned the streets of filthy hooligans like the Alex of Part I. Later we find out these hooligans have actually been put to work for the government. Billyboy is a policeman now. It seems the government, left with no alternative, gave the power to the ones who were already abusing it. How do we, as readers and commentators on this society, feel about this?
It also seems that the Government plans to implement Ludovico's Technique on a large scale; it seems that this is what the Minister of the Interior intends to use to bring about "a nice crime-free era." The change is marked even in Alex's apartment building; the graffiti cleaned up and the elevator works. In context, it's clear that these are sinister signs of increasing governmental power and intrusiveness. Is this a good thing? Is this progressive? How do we feel about his?
Alex gets a shock when he gets home in the form of his parents' new lodger, who has thoroughly usurped Alex's position as son. He's taken over Alex's room, is protective toward Alex's parents, and declines, for the sake of Alex's feeble parents, to let Alex come back to reside with them, saying, "Over my dead corpse you will, because they've let me be more like a son to them than like a lodger." Alex tries, out of the conditioned response installed by Ludovico's, to "be all reasonable and smiling for my health's sake like," but he is cast out and left to drift. The ?reformation? of Alex has turned him into, literally, a homeless bum. Is this true reformation? Has society, aka- the system, fixed anything? Do we feel for Alex as a protagonist? Are we, as readers of the text, supposed to?
In Part III, Alex revisits many of the places and reencounters many of the people of Part I, but he finds his affiliation to them changed. Part III is a kind of mirror image of Part I, both identical and opposite. Where Alex was formerly the victimizer, he finds himself the victim. Where he was once welcome, he is now thrown out. What used to give him pleasure, now gives him pain. In this way, this neat symmetrical structure in A Clockwork Orange emphasizes how much Alex has changed and what Ludovico's has done to him.
In the Korova, Alex finds himself acting like one of those pathetic gibberish-speakers he used to beat around a little bit for ?fun??in Part I, Chapter 1, Alex describes how he "cracked this veck [man] who was sitting next to me and well away and burbling a horrorshow [good] crack on the ooko or earhole, but he didn't feel it and went on with his 'Telephonic hardware and when the farfarculule gets rubadubdub,'" but now we find Alex acting just like him. "I could sort of slooshy [hear] myself...govoreeting [saying] slovos [words] like 'Dear dead idlewilds, rot not in variform guises' and all that cal [sh*t]," he says. The vision that he has while he's drinking his hallucinogenic milk seems related to his new existence as an inhuman "clockwork orange," shut out from music, that "figure of celestial bliss," and from the possibility of redemption: He says, "Bog [God] and the Angels and Saints sort of shook their gullivers [heads] at me," casting him out of heaven.
He goes next to the Korova and orders a large glass of drug-laced milk. He hallucinates, but the hallucinations turn unpleasant with God and the angels and saints shaking their heads at him. He decides that suicide is the only solution. But, when he thinks of cutting himself up with his old knife, the blood and violence of the image make him feel sick. He needs to figure out a gentle and bloodless way to kill himself. He decides to go to the public library to see if he can do some research and find a good, painless method. The treatment Alex received has driven him to suicidal thoughts- is this what the system wanted? Has the treatment been effective? Are these thoughts perhaps just empathy Alex is feeling for all of his prior victims?
Alex's trip to the library, where he happens to run into an old man he and his gang mugged in Part I, shows how exact the symmetry is between Parts I and III. In Part I, the old man had ventured into the hooligans' territory?the streets at night?and was mortified and mugged by Alex and his droogs. In this scene, Alex ventures into the old men's territory?the reading room at the public library?and is humiliated and beat up (though rather feebly) by the old man and his friends. The exactness of the reversal makes the scene absurd; it should be kept in mind that, although A Clockwork Orange is, in part, a philosophical novel, it may work best as a black comedy.
Once they get him out of the clutches of the old men, the police take a good look at Alex, saying "Well well well." One of the uniformed officers is Alex's old enemy Billyboy, one is his old friend Dim, and the other is a very young man he's never seen before. Alex is shocked and says that they're too young to be policemen. They take him into the patrol car and drive him out into the country. Once they are well away and alone, the young officers take Alex out of the car, brutilize him badly, and leave him lying in the empty field, hurt and with nowhere to go. Once again, the reader is faced with the problem of what to feel for Alex.
We will hear later from F. Alexander that "recruiting brutal young roughs for the police" has become government policy. Alex's old friend Dim and old enemy Billyboy, who have a grudge against him. In the same sort of symmetry that we have observed elsewhere between Part I and Part III, here Alex becomes the helpless victim of those he used to victimize. The ease with which Dim and Billyboy fit into the police force and the essential similarity between their present activities as police officers and their former activities as hooligans suggests the hollowness of the government's claim to represent the public good. They have given the power to those who already had it, given weapons to those who already had them. There is, as we see in this chapter, no real difference between the violence of teenage gangsters and the violence of police officers, except the police officers are better-organized and legal. When Billyboy says, "Streets must be kept clean in more than one way," meaning that he doesn't want the public to see what he and Dim are about to do to Alex. Billyboy is comparing it to the police's goal to keep the streets free of crime, further suggesting the similarity between criminals and police officers.
Okay kids, what do we think? I have presented a lot of questions throughout my summary/analysis- but I feel the biggest question still deals with freewill and society?s limitations upon it. Is it right? Is it just? What are we, as readers and commentators, supposed to feel and think about the progress of the novel?s plot and main characters, especially Alex?
"I am a slave to the wonders of the imagination and the cage of creativity." -E. Maggard
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jsavage
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Post by jsavage »

That is a great synopsis of the beginning of part 3!
It seems the government, left with no alternative, gave the power to the ones who were already abusing it. How do we, as readers and commentators on this society, feel about this?
In reading this it seemed like Alex left prison and found a parallel universe - the ex-cons are now enforcing the law. They behave just as violently, the only thing that has changed is their title/label which was created by the government. Not criminals but policemen. The world seems to be flipped upside down.
the wheel's still in spin, And there's no tellin' who, That it's namin', For the loser now, Will be later to win, For the times they are a-changin'
But employing the criminals seems to be the path of least resistance here.
The change here is definetely not for the better - The society seems to have changed into that of a repressive show run by big brother who appears to have made everything nice again. the book also mentions something about an election coming up and the minister of the inferior wanting to keep his job. is this all just a desperate ploy to maintain power through the guise of progress (by cleaning up the streets)?
The ?reformation? of Alex has turned him into, literally, a homeless bum. Is this true reformation? Has society, aka- the system, fixed anything?
while the doctors and govenment did plenty to mess up Alex's head, I don't think they meant for him to turn into a homeless bum. They supplied him with several job opportunites but Alex planned on just hanging out a bit. He wanted to go back to mom and dad's and just lay around and listen to music. He didn't seem to be a revitalized good samaratain. The problem here again is that they didn't change or cure Alex at all - they only killed his violent/sexual/musical/loving desires. That's all...
The treatment Alex received has driven him to suicidal thoughts- is this what the system wanted? Has the treatment been effective? Are these thoughts perhaps just empathy Alex is feeling for all of his prior victims?
First I wanted to mention that I found Alex's religious hallucinations very intriguing and insightful. He's already in an altered mental state (he's not the same as he was before the treatment) and the drug laced milk creates yet another. This time his hallucinations bring him comfort while the outside world is frightening to him.
About whether or not the system wanted him to have suicidal thoughts - the system did not consider any adverse side affects, they weren't concerned with the higher ethics but only with killing criminal urges and they were effective in stopping alex from beating up his replacement joe. and this would probably lead the system to believe that the treatment was successful.
maybe some of what he's going through now is empathy for his prior victims, but this would only be a side effect of the Ludovico treatment and not because Alex is a changed man.
The exactness of the reversal makes the scene absurd; it should be kept in mind that, although A Clockwork Orange is, in part, a philosophical novel, it may work best as a black comedy.
I definetely agree with you here - the parallels here are a bit ridiculous. I thought the same thing after his ex-enemy and ex-droog beat him up and leave him in the middle of nowhere, the rain starts falling. Alex is looking around for a light but can't see anything. It all seemed a bit dramatic. But Burgess is drawing a stark contrast in creating these dramatic scenes. I'm left wondering...do I feel bad for Alex or is he getting what he deserves?
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Post by knightss »

before i go back and try to answer some of emily's questions ( which were very good might i add, some of it i didn't even think of =x ) i want to talk about something i was thinking about while reading this book.

i think jsavage was talking about the pavlovian, behavioral conditioning, experiments in another thread. now i'm sure they could actually do something like this, condition a man to feel pain whenever he finds himself in a violent situation... but i wonder can the opposite be done? for instance someone who has a fear of public speaking. can this person be conditions in such a way that they will no longer have this fear.
this is pretty much the reverse conditioning of the experiments that alex went through. can fear and anxiety be replaced by a euphoric feeling if conditioned in a similar way?

i don't know, the thought just crossed my mind, let me know what you think.
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Post by knightss »

LoveHatesYou wrote: It seems the government, left with no alternative, gave the power to the ones who were already abusing it. How do we, as readers and commentators on this society, feel about this?
I don't find it surprising at all actually. keep your enemies close right? they couldn't control these young men so they put there forces to what they saw as a better use.
LoveHatesYou wrote: Is this a good thing? Is this progressive? How do we feel about his?
Before they became intrusive, everyone was in danger. i remember alex's father telling him that they could not go out at night for drinks because it was too dangerous. I think it worked out for the well being of those in the society.
LoveHatesYou wrote: Is this true reformation? Has society, aka- the system, fixed anything? Do we feel for Alex as a protagonist? Are we, as readers of the text, supposed to?
It is not a true reformation, it is a forced reformation that has taken away his free will. In part II and III we are meant to feel bad for what alex been put through. i don't think many people would want to be in his position but then again he did commit crimes and has to take the punishment for what he did.
LoveHatesYou wrote: The treatment Alex received has driven him to suicidal thoughts- is this what the system wanted? Has the treatment been effective? Are these thoughts perhaps just empathy Alex is feeling for all of his prior victims?
I don't think any of it is empathy. throughout the entire book alex has only thought of himself. the suicidal thought was a side effect that i don't think the doctors saw coming. maybe if they did they would have shown him every video imaginable of people killing themselves.. it would have eliminated the problem. thats horrible, but possible true lol.
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Post by knightss »

P.S. - what's the next book?
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Post by Scott »

LoveHatesYou wrote:The change is marked even in Alex's apartment building; the graffiti cleaned up and the elevator works. In context, it's clear that these are sinister signs of increasing governmental power and intrusiveness. Is this a good thing? Is this progressive? How do we feel about his?
In itself, some may see it as good. However, as we start to find out as the story progresses onwards, the increased power of the government causes more damage then harm. If people want their buildings clean so much, let them get it cleaned on their own, without the seeming help of the government.
LoveHatesYou wrote:The "reformation" of Alex has turned him into, literally, a homeless bum. Is this true reformation? Has society, aka- the system, fixed anything? Do we feel for Alex as a protagonist? Are we, as readers of the text, supposed to?
I don't know if we are supposed to, but I know I did sympathize with him at times, which scared me considering Alex's true character.
LoveHatesYou wrote:The treatment Alex received has driven him to suicidal thoughts- is this what the system wanted? Has the treatment been effective? Are these thoughts perhaps just empathy Alex is feeling for all of his prior victims?
I doubt that the system wanted to make Alex suicidal, since that conflicts with their mistaken contention that Alex has been reformed by the so-called treatment. I want to say that Alex does not feel empathy for his prior victims and that Alex merely feels sorry for himself and his own pain, but perhaps that becomes empathy, because empathy is created by the recognition of the similarity between one's own pain with that of others. I'm not sure. What do you think?
LoveHatesYou wrote:There is, as we see in this chapter, no real difference between the violence of teenage gangsters and the violence of police officers, except the police officers are better-organized and legal.
That's exactly what's going on. The government as a whole is just a violent institution using coercion to force its will on others; just like Alex did prior. Are we better off with violence distributed among individuals with a few punk kids like Alex, or are we better off with all the violence in the hands of one big bad powerful government? I think the latter. What do you think?

The government recruits the help of thugs like Billyboy. Is that any different then what Alex used to do? Is it any different then what any gang or mafia does?
jsavage wrote:while the doctors and govenment did plenty to mess up Alex's head, I don't think they meant for him to turn into a homeless bum.
I agree, in that I don't think the government meant to turn Alex into a homeless bum. Nonetheless, do you think the government cares if Alex did turn into a homeless bum? I think the government doesn't care at all, because they are only worried about coming up with a treatment that can be used to brainwash people, allegedly because the government wants to stop crime.
knightss wrote:Before they became intrusive, everyone was in danger. i remember alex's father telling him that they could not go out at night for drinks because it was too dangerous. I think it worked out for the well being of those in the society.
Perhaps the solution is worse then the problem, though. Aren't we in more danger when the threat is a big powerful government with its collection of hired thugs (a.k.a. police), then from punk kids like Alex?
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Post by searching »

I read the posts for A Clockwork Orange and enjoyed your discussion. I'll have to read the book now. What's the next book? I'd like to join in.
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Post by LoveHatesYou »

The end of Clockwork Orange Monday- Get ready!
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Post by Mikail Light »

I appreciated reading the A Clockwork Orange posts and your debate. I must now read the book. What is the upcoming book? I want to participate.
The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new.~ Socrates :techie-studyingbrown:
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