Discuss writing, including writing tips & tricks, writing philosophy, writer's block, etc. If you have grammar questions, marketing questions, or if you want feedback on a poem or short story you wrote, please use the corresponding forum below.
Featured Topic: How to Get Your Book Published
Yesterday it was raining and I decided to side-track from my task and brose through the "Best Seller" section of a local bookstore. Years ago I developed a habit of reading just the first page of a novel. (Few beginning writers fail to realize just how important that first page is and focus on the cover before the book is written.)
Have you noticed many literary agents will ask you to send them the first ten pages of your novel. There is a reason for that request. Your writing style and the "hook" that's ells your work is found in the first ten pages--actually in the first page.
I have spent more time designing the first page of a novel than I do writing the first chapter. When I wrote two series, I used an animal to start the story with and then somewhere in the novel I reintroduce the creature at a very important turning point. EXAMPLE: In one novel I start with a malaria mosquito hatching in an empty military C-Ration can half full with rain water. I have the mosquito fly over to an enemy soldier eating a bowl of rice a few meters away in the jungle and bite him. Near the end of the story I reintroduce the enemy soldier suffering from malaria who is trying to aim his rifle in his shaking hands at our hero...
So when you begin a novel, spend a LOT of time on that first page. Do NOT overload the reader with facts or a description--develop a clever "hook" to get the reader wanting more--if they turn the page--you've won.
P.S, One of the greatest opening lines for a novel every written is: "It was the best of times and the worst of times...."
You're correct about making that first impression. I've generally started my novels in medias res to grab the readers' attention. That first passage or first chapter sets the tone. Then I use the chapters after this to fill in the story line.
Since I write mystery novels, sometimes that first page or first scene is quite graphic. Here's the beginning of my new novel, soon to be published:
An efficiency apartment neat and spotless, maintained by a young woman who took student life seriously, pride in modest surroundings. Inexpensive bookshelves lining the walls, filled to capacity with paperbacks and collegiate texts. Stacks of notebooks, pristine desk and office-style cubicle, laptop and printer, family photos. Nearby bed made up, sheets tucked. Adjoined kitchenette gleaming, dining counter and two bar stools the same. Bathroom next, also clean, bright.
Except that the apartment was now an abattoir, every surface strewn with her body parts. A vile and perverted display....
(more follows)
----
I use the deliberately placid and almost prosaic first paragraph to contrast with the 2nd, which begins a very bloody description of the murdered woman. So the impact will be even more powerful.
Your make a good point, "Moderntimes" (I wish people would use their real names. I dislike monikers.) but I find using unfamiliar words on the first page stops the reader causing a pause that could end up them putting the book down. I'm referring to the word, "abattoir" (slaughterhouse) that very few people know what it means. NOTHING should stop the reader from turning the first page.
Well, I write my books for a fairly educated readership. I'm not going to rewrite my text toward a 6th grade education audience.
And the word "abattoir" has a certain texture and resonance. I choose my words carefully for their balance and rhythm.
Also, my writing resulted in sale of all 3 novels to a conventional publisher, so somebody thought it was okay.
I've used words like "chiaroscuro" "gentrification" "concomitant" "ancillary" "anathema" "paradigm" and many other "ten dollar" words. My private detective protagonist is highly educated and his internal narrative is literate, with asides from James Joyce, Shakespeare and many others. The juxtaposition (another big word) between the rough trade and Chandlerian "mean streets" and his literate mind is one of the aspects of my novels.
But as I say, I'm not writing for kids. I'm writing for fairly well educated adults. And thus far, it's apparently working, since my books are all being professionally published and are receiving good reviews.
As for the pseudonym, hey, I write my books under my real name "Sam Waas" but since my authorship and name are easily accessible via a google search, and since my real name is on the cover of my books, I prefer the "moderntimes" moniker so as to put a little distance between my everyday postings in the forum vs my professional authorship.
Ouch! Don't get so defensive. I remember the first time I read Faulkner--I had to underline every word I didn't know and them look them up in a dictionary and then re-read the page. Please note Sam, I have ten novels published by New York publishing house, so there is no need to throw out you are being published. We're just talking. I write to average Americans, so my writing is more plain (but I do know some ten dollar words!) We have to agree to disagree on the use of monikers--I stand behind EVERY word I write and I attach my real name to it. I took some very heavy hits doing that with my weekly columns in two Detroit newspapers (347+), but that's the only way for me to go. As for me, I'd rather address you as Sam than as Moderntimes.
See Sam by using your real name I could check out your 3 books on *************--quite impressive. I even got to read the first coupe pages and was impressed. Because of obvious reasons on this website we as authors cannot mention our own books, but being able to see each others work "off site" ADDS to the discussions. I wonder how the Algonquin Club could handle have so many egos all together at once.
Sam, I notice two of your novels "Full Circle" and "Blood Spiral" start out with the same opening paragraphs---is that a trick of yours or an imprint technique for your novels? Also in your third (first?) novel your open sentence reads-- "Since (the?) city jail occupies..." I guess your advanced readers also speak differently than my readers do. I noticed you live/write in Swartz Creek, Michigan! One of my novels has a setting in Birmingham/Bloomfield Hills--actually two of them do. How small the circle is.
Okay -- here's the story. My publisher is in Michigan. I live in Houston.
My novels were briefly published by a very small "boutique" house which then was absorbed by a larger firm and transmuted into a vanity place where authors had to pay for publication. I refused and my books were quickly dropped. I refuse to pay to get my books published. My current publisher is a small non-vanity, non-subsidy house (they pay me, not the other way around) who has signed me to a 3-book contract.
Originally, novel #1 was "Full Circle" for about 6 months. Subsequently, I completely revised and rewrote the first 2 novels, and they are renamed with the "Blood xyz" schema so as to make them recognizable as a series. Therefore, "Blood Spiral" is book 1 (you can read the review on this site), "Blood Storm" is book 2, review on this site pending. And soon, book 3, "Blood Vengeance" is brand new, never before published, and will appear on Amazon near year's end. I'm also working on book 4, "Blood Betrayal".
What's confusing is that Amazon keeps previously published titles listed even if they're out of print. My re-written novels are however currently available on Amazon (soon bookstores) and you can recognize them by the very dark cover artwork with the book title and my name, plus the subtitle "A Mitch King Mystery" center page, and a gun, knife, or speedy bullet top, a pseudo-photo outline of the Houston skyline bottom.
You can PM me or google my name for my website, which describes the whole series.
Understand, moderators, I'm not trying to promote my books in this post. I'm just answering the questions. If I've stepped over the line, my apologies and please feel free to delete the post.
-- 04 Dec 2015, 13:07 --
The sentence "Since city jail occupies..." is perfectly acceptable modern English, with the article "the" optional, and also, since the term "city jail" defines an entity, an article is actually not suitable. For example, you can say "I believe Congress has failed us." rather than "I believe the Congress has failed us."
My writing style for my novels is intentionally sparse and I omit articles which more verbose authors might use so that the narrative is trim and brisk. I feel that excessive use of articles can impede the rhythm of a narrative. My syntax is however 100% legit.
And it's not necessary to punctuate each sentence with a smiley face. Standard English works just fine. Honest.
Sam! The smiley face is to let you know I won't bite. Sometimes people get too defensive and smiley faces tone down the written word. I've been ripped off myself with the self-publishing crowd in 1974 with my first non-fiction book and I agree with you on the point I will never pay to have my novels published.
I disagree on the point of writing the King's English for a high class reader. I write like people talk in my novels. I took one creative writing class while in college and the results were interesting. The short of it was the professor gave me his novel manuscript to review and I was told I would get an "A" for his class if I could tell him what was wrong with it. The first couple of pages gave the answer. It was perfectly written and the storyline was stretched out. The problem with English majors writing books is people don't use perfect English and are very uncomfortable reading it. The question one must ask: What is the purpose of the book? My novels are filled with; honor, truth, courage, doing-the-right-thing--all the old Boy Scout stuff.
My comment on Swartz Creek, Michigan was made because that is my old stomping grounds. I was raised in Saginaw and spent a lot of time around Flint/Swartz Creek.
I can see from your numerous posts you are the resident writing guru on this webpage and I am not challenging your title--actually I joined this site to have some of my books reviewed for feedback from readers. That's all and maybe share some of the lessons I learned in the publishing/E-book industries, but I see you have all that covered so I'll back off on posting. Have at it!
Like I said in the original post--I can read the first couple pages of a novel and pretty much tell its quality.
For me, smiley faces or any other emoticon is a shortcut which writers don't need to use. I prefer words, words, words, as Hamlet says.
My dialogue is carefully crafted to depict real people speaking. My narrative in my novels, all 1st person, however comes from a very well educated and highly literate protagonist, and so his own mental narrative voice is full of literary allusions and fairly upscale rhetoric.
Dialog is another matter. Couple years ago I reviewed a mystery novel -- I review mysteries for a website and have about 100+ under my belt -- and although the plot and thesis were fine, the dialog brought the book to a screeching halt. One character would speak, using long sentences and paragraphs, maybe 3/4 page of solid declamation. The character would then go silent and the other character would speak, using exactly the same sentence structure and syntax, long uninterrupted sentences. The characters spoke as if they were giving prepared speeches and the result was stupefying and boring.
Here's how I write dialog. This is a chapter where my private eye and his very large and rough pal, Tony Vee are kicking back on the front porch of a rustic tavern after having played a silly and oddball game of "indoor golf" at the tavern. I work very hard to make my dialog realistic -- short sentences, each speaker having a different word choice or syntax and so on... This is from my upcoming novel "Blood Vengeance", some words redacted to pass forum rules...
---====
It was a little after ten and the weather had chilled to about eighty. Tony and I sat on an old fashioned wooden swing on the front porch of The Ship. We were side by side but had placed ourselves as far apart as possible, like a teenage couple being surveilled by the girl’s father just inside the house, peering out the front widow.
Tony and I both laid off the beer, he drinking Ozarka spring water, myself a Coke. “Fun game tonight,” I said.
“Least nobody got killed.”
“There is that.”
We lazily swung back and forth, more from random body movement than deliberate intent. A local rock band had started their gig in the barn area behind us and we could hear the bass rhythm. We earlier watched them set up and they looked about twelve years old. Like most clubs, patrons at The Ship become younger as the evening proceeds, the 30ish golf crazies gradually replaced by kids whom I knew had been carefully ID’d as at least twenty-one but didn’t seem much older than the band.
“Wanna go back and listen?” Tony asked.
“Naw.”
“Mind if I smoke?”
“Naw.”
Tony retrieved a leather case from his jacket, took out a small cigar, considered it a while, put it back. “Too much work.”
“Golf wears you out.”
“A considerable challenge,” Tony remarked. “The course at The Ship, not quite Pebble Beach, though.”
Tony and I sat quietly a while, then he said, “Street talk is you’ve been hangin’ with the Perdon cousins, Ricardo and Angel.” He pronounced the name correctly, Anhel.
“Christ. I went through this crud with Meierhoff. Now you?”
“Perdons work for Julie Cards. Of course you know that.”
I sipped my Coke, stayed quiet.
“Julie Cards’ real name is Julio Cardozo,” he said.
“I know that too.”
“Julie Cards is into all sorts of shady stuff.”
“And you’re not?” I countered.
“Point taken.”
Tony half turned toward me, spoke just above a whisper. “Rumor that the girl, Cheryl, Cherie, whoever she is? Went through all that crud with her crazy stepsister? You were down with that. Rumor she’s mixed up with Julie Cards.”
I sighed. It was inevitable that Cheryl’s name would eventually surface as connected with Julio Cardozo. “Do me a favor,” I asked. “Don’t pass it on about Cheryl Stern. She’s had enough bad mojo come her way.”
“Won’t say a word, dude. But way I heard, Cardozo’s her real father.”
I looked out across the skyline. “You know what that would mean, it becomes general knowledge?”
“A’course. Cardozo’s made enemies. Most gangs won’t touch a family member, but some don’t give a damn.”
“Which is why nobody needs to speculate further on that,” I said.
“Nobody’ll ever hear it from me, dude. You and I are tight. You know that, Mitch.”
“I know.”
“Maybe you wanna tell me how you’re connected?”
“You ask a lot of questions for a guy who’s so large.”
“I’m just a big curious kid, wants to know stuff.”
“I happened to be there when Cheryl needed somebody last year. Meierhoff was with me, too. You know all that. She phoned me last week, asked for help again.”
“What about?”
“Nobody,” I said. “Nobody knows this except the Perdon cousins, other insiders.”
“Lips sealed, dude.”
“Cardozo had a stroke, a bad one. He’s essentially paralyzed, can’t speak, nobody knows for certain whether he’s still there inside, or just an empty shell.”
“Jesus,” Tony said. “If word got out…”
I nodded. “A takeover war. Lots of blood.”
“So the Perdon boys are running things now?”
I shook my head. “Cheryl is. With their help, of course.”
“Christ. She’s what, twenty?”
“Eighteen actually. But she’s a natural leader. How and why I have zero idea. Of course, the Perdons are the organization and give orders to others. Cheryl’s stepped in, learned the ropes, making more and more decisions. She’s also taking the business legit.”
Tony chuckled. “Gangsta gal. Who woulda thunk it. And you’re what?”
“I’m nothing. Cheryl trusts me, so we talk occasionally.”
“And Julie Cards?”
“He just sits in a wheelchair next to her,” I said. “Sometimes he cries.”
-----
Anyway, regarding me being a "guru" or whatever? Ha! My only claim to fame, such as it is, is that the common theme in this forum is that pro publishing = bad, self publishing = good. Which I regard as BS. There are endless horror stories about how publishers bully writers and steal from them and such, but when I ask for a REAL account from anyone, the silence is golden.
I'm sorry, but too many fledgling writers deceive themselves into thinking that because their writing is rejected by conventional agents or publishers, this means that their writing is "too elegant" or "too special" for the morass and they must therefore survive in the unique and lofty world of self publishing. Frankly speaking, I've read quite a few of these efforts and they're just not very good.
And far too many newbie writers miss the point -- if their writing is rejected, maybe it's because the writing isn't good enough. And this means that they need to work harder.
I've got nothing against self publishing per se. But my continual point is that a writer should first test the water of commercial publishing and see what happens. Scott here is a great guy but sometimes he gets on a soapbox about conventional publishing. It is what it is. It exists to both make a profit and to advance literature. Sometimes the former goal overrides the latter, to be sure.
But I (gasp!) write to make money! Now no, that's not my primary objective. Otherwise I'd have accepted a few ghosting offers which have come my way. However, book sales are the mark by which a book is judged, in part. And sometimes a best seller is such because it's deserved. Although I love writing and creating my private eye novels is a joy unto itself, I am also anticipating when my new novel starts to pick up sales and gains some recognition in the mystery field. I don't write for my own self-gratification alone. I've often said there that such a behavior is akin to masturbation. Yeah, it's kinda fun, but it's also a poor second to the real thing. ha ha
And for a writer, NOTHING is better than going into a bookstore and seeing your novel on the shelf! E-book sales are fine but having that novel in real, physical print and seeing it on a real, physical bookshelf in a real, physical bookstore? Numinous.
You wrote; "There are endless horror stories about how publishers bully writers and steal from them and such, but when I ask for a REAL account from anyone, the silence is golden." I posted here on this website about being ripped off by a major New York Publisher and agent. So there is one REAL account.
Of course everyone wants to have their book in print--the problem is fewer and fewer people--especially men are reading fiction. A major store in my area (Meijer's) has a large book area in their store and every time I go in the store I pass that area and I NEVER saw a person looking at books until a few days ago there was an old man looking at hardbacks. I had to stop and congratulate him!
My point: With fewer readers, major publishing houses need to have SURE deals for sales and that leads to a few very well known writers/celebrities. Also few people are willing to pay $25.00+ for a hardback book.
I am well aware of the absolute joy and satisfaction seeing one's book in print in a book store. When one of my novels came out my son was in a Detroit Mall with his buddies. He called me and told me to meet him in the Mall and he took me over to the bookstore and showed me the display of more than 100 of my books in the front window, We sat on a bench for a very long time sharing the view...Sadly, few writers get to enjoy that.
I disagree with you on self-publishing, especially E-Books. I am an old man now and write novels for the pure joy of the experience and E-Books are a great way to "complete" the experience. Many of my combat buddies have written their memoirs and published them as E-books for their families. The writing is poor but the therapy is priceless.
Understood. People write for various reasons and for many it is indeed therapy. So yeah, for some, self-publishing is fine.
My primary point is that we get lots of newbie writers here who seem to think they've got no chance because of the "evil" publishers and their only salvation is self-publishing. I urge them to at least try the conventional route first. This is for those writers who are really serious about their writing, of course. By "serious" I mean those who want to place their books into the marketplace for legitimate reasons -- making money maybe, gaining some recognition perhaps.
Those writers who want to write for perhaps therapeutic reasons only, maybe self publishing is fine.
I'm an old dude too, and I've been writing all my adult life. I started when I was "fired" for writing a piece in college that criticized the admin, so I started my own underground newsletter. I've written articles, essays, short stories, book & movie reviews for major dailies, strung for another major daily and for the AP, and so on.
At the same time I worked in my "day jobs" as a researcher for a big chemicals firm, programmer (scientific & engineering), managed high tech computer products with a worldwide market, wrote tech articles and manuals, edited and wrote high-tech engineering specs for offshore exploration (oil and gas) and so on. Per my college major in chemistry, minors in bio and math, 2nd major in English lit with emphasis on 20th century novels, particularly James Joyce. Go figure. And in my "spare time" I'm a classically trained operatic baritone who's sung in "real" operas, chorales, etc. Needless to say, I keep busy.
Now I'm concentrating on my private eye novels and fairly late in life have now sold all 3 of my novels, now being published and soon to be in stores. Reviews have been positive and this is a growing project, the 4th novel in progress. I've also got an "angel" who is a major literary figure in the mystery writers' world and I'm pretty enthusiastic about the upcoming year.
I spent over a year writing my first novel and another 6 months editing it. I took the traditional route by first finding a literary agent. I sent it to over 100 agents and was rejected by all of them and became very disappointed. My writing "career" was over and I needed to find a job. I was hired by General Dynamics as a Public Relations director and did a major favor for a New York magazine editor. During a conversation he asked me if there was anything he could do for me in return. Jokingly, I said--"Yeah, I have a book manuscript I'd like to have represented by an agent." He told me to send him a copy and he'd see what he could do. A month later I received a call from a very prominent agent. That relationship led into 10 novels being published in print. The moral of the story: It is not entirely how GOOD your book is--one MUST have some kind of connection to break through the steel ceiling AND even then it takes a lot of luck.
When a writer receives rejections, most of us take it to heart thinking our work is not good enough or flawed--even when we KNOW the work is good. Also, getting an "agent" is not the end of it. There are thousands of agents HUSTLING naïve writers with reading fees and "postage" costs etc. with literally NO contacts with major publishing houses. The really good agents are very difficult to approach and you will need an introduction.
Congrats on the publishing, donald. And yes a contact does help, for certain. I'd say that a connection isn't necessary but coming forward with no extra help is of course a lot harder.
And yes there are plenty of fake agencies who are predatory. All prospective writers need to know this: A legit agent or a legit publisher will charge you ZERO money, ever. Not one cent.
There is one exception however to this: if you ask for special treatment you may be asked to pay. For example, if your agency or publisher is 100% email based and you want to send physical manuscripts you may be charged a fee. If your publisher offers free cover art and you want a particular artist, you may be asked to pay. If you want to make last minute changes to your book AFTER you've approved the final galleys, the extra editing and setup fees may come from your royalties. These "special treatment" items almost always cost extra. Unless of course you're Stephen King.
I've often recommended the very fine website "preditors and editors" which maintains a comprehensive list of both legit and fake agencies and publishers, and has a watch list for scams. And of course just googling the name of the firm works too.
There is irony also in that first book. I write very long manuscripts. Once the storyline takes hold I let the story direct me to the ending. MY average novel is 400 pages with my saga--my masterpiece--running over a thousand pages. The book manuscript in question was a little over 700 pages and they wanted me to cut it in half and make two novels. Being new to the business and naïve, I went along with them and reworked a couple pages to end the "first" novel and a few more pages to introduce the second "novel." I really did not want to do that--but... A few levels later in the publishing house and the novel was put back together in its original form and published.
The author must remember publishing houses see thousands of manuscripts--they could care less about YOUR feelings--they are interested in making MONEY--PERIOD! Oh, they state the correct lines...but it is all about money and it takes a lot of money to keep their operations going. My Point: Don't put your heart on your sleeve when you hand them your manuscript.
Currently, I am working the system backwards--I have published my masterpiece novel on E-Book through a decent E-Book publishing house. I do not expect large sales--most people shy away from 700+ page novels (Silly people!) but I'm looking for a few decent reviews and fine tune the storyline if needed (It better not need it!) and then approach a major publishing house with some data. I'll let you know it works.
